Are ebikers saving the planet?

[Alex728]

There must be at least a third Wisper owner here, as David mentioned someone regularly riding to Ipswich (a 15-20 mile commute!) from the rural areas...

In some ways I think that climate protestors can be counter productive, by appearing so different from Mr/Ms average, perhaps they'd have greater impact if they all wore suits to go marching. I'd certainly be an eye/camera catching image anyway...

they have done that before and still got nicked/hassled/kettled etc.

the issue isn't so much what they wear/look like but that a lot of so-called eco-protestors are there more to settle their own personal disputes with the concept of any kind of government/authority rather than address any constructive cause. I know at first hand as a former rave organiser in the 1990s/early 2000s I noticed a crossover between the hedonistic ravers and the protestors, but a lot of it was due to a copious and abundant supply of drugs.

Sadly a fair few of the protestors of those days got hooked on worse drugs like heroin and have deep set anger against the authorities as stuff like shoplifting and openly shooting up in the street obviously gets folk arrested! Also amongst their contingent (particularly during the 1990s) were (and I guess still are) a lot of former footy hooligans who took E and felt a bit "loved up" and grew their hair etc and found the protest scene to have ample opportunity for a ruck with coppers whilst still looking "right on" enough to try and pull the girls (although now footy hooliganism is back in fashion they are back on the terraces). Worse, there were even sexual predators on those camps targeting the idealistic young girls. There are good reasons why men still aren't allowed on Greenham Common peace camp after dark even today and they aren't just because the women there are "stuck in a 1970s timewarp"...

Most of the people who have any brains or determination to make a positive change are now in the local Transition towns groups rather than the frontline of "fashionable protest".

 

[Straylight]

Indeed, I'm kind of split on the whole protest movement thing. I think it's good in that it serves as a constant reminder to the politicians of what hangs on the outcome of their deliberations (though one would hope they're pretty clear on this already), but as I alluded to earlier feel it also perpetuates the notion that 'being green' is somehow separate from mainstream society, and allows responsible lifestyle choices to be easily pigeon-holed as a 'hippy thing'. Such designation is in my view entirely counter-productive, as it allows for opinions to be formed based on the political prejudice of the lazy and intransigent. As well as being an easy way of avoiding the issue altogether.

Anyway, that's my lefty, longhaired, anticapitalist, peacemongering, wet and fluffy point of view, which is largely agreed with round the campfire I must say....

 

[flecc]

Anyway, that's my lefty, longhaired, anticapitalist, peacemongering, wet and fluffy point of view, which is largely agreed with round the campfire I must say....

Yeah man, way to go!
.

 

[Straylight]

Oh, and another thing

If you're at all interested in this subject, and can access it, then there's a very informative documentary available now on iplayer, it's in three hour long parts, so has a chance to go into some detail regarding a lot of the arguments. Well worth watching IMHO

It's called "Earth: The Climate Wars" btw.

 

[eTim]

Oh, and another thing

If you're at all interested in this subject, and can access it, then there's a very informative documentary available now on iplayer, it's in three hour long parts, so has a chance to go into some detail regarding a lot of the arguments. Well worth watching IMHO

It's called "Earth: The Climate Wars" btw.

Given that the root cause of the worlds ills appear to be related to global overpopulation, I wonder how many eco protestors, politicians and scientists have played their part in reducing the global population?

Not many I suspect.

 

[Alex728]

Given that the root cause of the worlds ills appear to be related to global overpopulation, I wonder how many eco protestors, politicians and scientists have played their part in reducing the global population?

Not many I suspect.

I don't think thats completely fair, politicians have at least tried to reduce population by causing two (and probably three now) global wars, scientists have created loads of CBRN weapons which if deployed could wipe out hundreds of thousands, and even eco-protestors and hippy hedonists sometimes take so many drugs and indulge in promiscuity ("free love" culture etc) that they damage both male and female fertility...

that said war isn't that effective at reducing global population, I don't think WW II actually made that much of an impact on the worlds population (4% according to here)

World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alex728]

Indeed, I'm kind of split on the whole protest movement thing. I think it's good in that it serves as a constant reminder to the politicians of what hangs on the outcome of their deliberations (though one would hope they're pretty clear on this already), but as I alluded to earlier feel it also perpetuates the notion that 'being green' is somehow separate from mainstream society, and allows responsible lifestyle choices to be easily pigeon-holed as a 'hippy thing'.

I personally think the "noisy protest" movement ran its course in the 1990s - and from discussions with the older generation including my parents who used to be "hippies" - I get the impression its effect had already been diluted in the 1970s when I was a little boy!

IMO a lot of people got distracted by the associated hedonistic music / entertainment scene (same thing happened in the 1990s with raves)

Ironically a lot of older people round this way do lead "green" lifestyles as a matter of course.

One thing I noticed was the first people to get back on their bikes when the credit crunch/peak oil first became apparent were those in their middle years. I think in many cases their late teens/20 something children were less able/willing not to use cars due to starting families at a very early age and the vicious circle that "roads are dangerous so its not safe to let kids walk/cycle to school"

Worse still, some of the unattached youth actually actively rebel against anything "green" as its "not cool because mum and dad are into it". I saw this a lot with the younger ravers - when the cops and locals here had finally had enough of them trashing Thetford Forest and other similar places, they simply drive 200 miles to SE England or London to have their parties (whether they are sober or the driver is even licensed/insured isn't always a consideration) - in fact they have lost more young'uns from RTC's than the direct effects of drugs

Unfortunately todays weather prevented me from attending the Transition Towns Christmas party but I will try and get to the next one..

 

[lemmy]

and should be rewarding childless people?

Some arguments vanish up their own bottom. That's one of them. If you reward people for not having children, whom will you tax to get the money to pay the reward?

I'm afraid this present government promotes the idea that money grows on trees and the government kindly picks it for us. They do not. Every year we work from Jan 1st to 25th June on average before we earn a penny for our personal use.

 

[Barry Heaven]

Some arguments vanish up their own bottom. That's one of them. If you reward people for not having children, whom will you tax to get the money to pay the reward?

I'm afraid this present government promotes the idea that money grows on trees and the government kindly picks it for us. They do not. Every year we work from Jan 1st to 25th June on average before we earn a penny for our personal use.

And the money that the government takes off you all goes to feckless wasters? You don't get any of this back in the form of services?

 

[Mussels]

And the money that the government takes off you all goes to feckless wasters? You don't get any of this back in the form of services?

From the tone of that I'm guessing you are a civil servant or a feckless waster.

 

[bode]

From the tone of that I'm guessing you are a civil servant or a feckless waster.

I am neither of those, but think that you betray a shaky understanding of the mechanics of government and society.

 

[eTim]

Just out of interest has anyone done any research into how many extra needless tonnes of CO2 Copenhagen will have produced? And how they propose to offset this?

 

[Mussels]

I am neither of those, but think that you betray a shaky understanding of the mechanics of government and society.

How did you manage that from what I posted?

 

[lemmy]

And the money that the government takes off you all goes to feckless wasters? You don't get any of this back in the form of services?

I neither said nor implied anything about any of that. I said that money doesn't grow on trees and you don't get a personal choice of what to do with your money until late in the year.

Why the emotional outburst?

 

[Straylight]

This though is he cost of choosing to live in a society with a system of governance, trading laws, financial sector, police force etc. to cocoon us in relative safety, and yet still allow us the freedom to earn a living in the first place. As well as the ability to spend that income on mainly imported e-bikes etc. The Markets could not exist without a state infrastructure, and it is this that the treasury collects taxes to support. Private enterprise will not,and can not provide all that a society needs to survive, as it would end up with a case of a lot of self interest, and little enlightenment. You only have to look at the banks' current/past behavior, and lack of any acceptance of responsibility, to see what deregulation actualy means.

 

[musicbooks]

It's all academic anyway, since we will not achieve the reductions desired with the hugely complex array of ineffective alleviations we aim to apply.

The only solution is the most simple one, a massive reduction in the population, and our failure to solve the global warming problem, if it exists, will automatically provide that reduction.

Ergo, I need do nothing.
.

Good to hear that you are keeping it in your trousers for the sake of the planet Flecc. We all have to do our bit (or not)

bw
musicbooks

 

[Straylight]

Thankfuly there's this wonderful new invention called contraception, that we really must tell more people about! All the fun, without the costly side effects

 

[flecc]

Good to hear that you are keeping it in your trousers for the sake of the planet Flecc. We all have to do our bit (or not)

bw
musicbooks

It doesn't have to be the positive approach Tom, a negative approach is just as effective.

Driving too fast, cycling furiously on pavements, electing governments who like to be permanently at war, carrying knives, giving "down and outs" money for their meths, buying fags and drink for under age kids, there's many ways to cut the population.
.

 

[lemmy]

It doesn't have to be the positive approach Tom, a negative approach is just as effective.

Absolutely. As a negative approach, how about no regulation of the market. People keep saying the market failed with the banks. It didn't. The banks made short term and risky decisions, the market worked perfectly by putting them put of business as a result of those decisions. The market worked, it's just that we didn't like the results.

So the state stepped in and rescued them from the results of their bad decisions. Now, the taxpayer has the debts and one way and another the banks still get their bonuses and the shareholders their rewards.

Therer is only one message and lesson here. Get into banking.

 

[Barnowl]

Thankfuly there's this wonderful new invention called contraception, that we really must tell more people about! All the fun, without the costly side effects

Yes works for me too.

Combined with the robots to do the donkey work and some system to redistribute wealth we have the perfect solution. Pass me the orgasmatron