Anyone else ordered Trek nano (Cytronex)?

Mark/Cytronex

Pedelecer
May 22, 2008
89
4
Winchester
www.no-hills.com
Specs

Thanks for your quereies, we are trying to get some info on the cytronex.com and no-hills.com site later today, but it certainly won't be the all singing, all dancing bells and whistles version, just a holding page with some more pics and info. I will post again when there is something to see.

Regarding query about kits, yes it does seem an obvious one, but there is a great deal to the wiring that is hidden. Our approach is based arround our love of bikes and the aesthetics of a bike. What we don't want to do is detract from this in any way. To achieve invisible assistance is very difficult to do in a kit, especially with all the variations that exist in bikes. That doesn't mean we won't do it, but we will only launch a kit when we are happy that the owners will end up with a great looking bike!

Regards,

Mark
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Your website is looking good so far Mark. There is a stray F top left though:rolleyes:

A few questions if I may,
  1. Is there a way of locking the battery to prevent theft?
  2. A hot chestnut on this forum, what is the availability?
  3. Do you have bikes in stock or do you build to order?
John:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mark/Cytronex

Pedelecer
May 22, 2008
89
4
Winchester
www.no-hills.com
Stock etc.

Can't seem to get rid of the rogue 'F' it is not showing in Dreamweaver!

Your questions:
1. Not at the moment, but I think we will add something. It didn't occur to me as necessary before because I always take the battery with me, as it is small and light. But it did come up at Presteigne, particularly with reference to the ladies bike and shopping. We will probably add a security loop that a lock will go through.
2. At the moment probably about two weeks, but see answer below.
3. Our plan is to always keep 20 bikes ready in stock in a range of frame sizes, we are very near to the station an Winchester (1 hour from Waterloo) so we want people to come down on the train if possible, test a bike, then take one away with them with any accessories required fitted.
 

stokepa31_mk2

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 7, 2008
381
0
Can't seem to get rid of the rogue 'F' it is not showing in Dreamweaver!

Your questions:
1. Not at the moment, but I think we will add something. It didn't occur to me as necessary before because I always take the battery with me, as it is small and light. But it did come up at Presteigne, particularly with reference to the ladies bike and shopping. We will probably add a security loop that a lock will go through.
2. At the moment probably about two weeks, but see answer below.
3. Our plan is to always keep 20 bikes ready in stock in a range of frame sizes, we are very near to the station an Winchester (1 hour from Waterloo) so we want people to come down on the train if possible, test a bike, then take one away with them with any accessories required fitted.
Mark

If the interest here is anyting to go by you are going to be inundated. Dont want to tell you how to suck eggs but have you looked at how you can scale the business quickly if need be. As John has alluded to in his post, there have been issues with supply at most of the major players launching new lines.

Your Trek is very appealing indeed and I wish you well with the venture. If you ever find a way to put this in a carbon framed Trek I would have to have it:)
 

Mark/Cytronex

Pedelecer
May 22, 2008
89
4
Winchester
www.no-hills.com
Carbon Framed Trek

Thanks for your post Paul.

Actually we amost certainly could put it in a Carbon framed Trek, its just a question of having the development tme. In fact I was planning on having one for myself.

But as you say in your email we need to meet demand which means standardisation. Chris asked about the Bontrager carbon forks on the models up and I mentioned that they don't work with the motor. I have fitted the system to a Pilot with these forks but we ended up having to modify the motor (although it went like a rocket). However, I would be surrpised if there wasn't a carbon fork that was compatible, it is just a question of finding it. However, in the Trek range, it will probably be quite a few models up and therefore lots more money!

Regards,

Mark
 

Chris_Bike

Pedelecer
May 20, 2008
159
0
Birmingham
Hi guys,
There's a Reynolds cyclo-cross fork available for about £150 that I suspect would work with the FX 7.3 setup, but I would be inclined to try a road fork and change to a good quality road brake (say Shimano 105 or better in a long reach caliper). The other really productive place to save weight would be the chainset - try any Octalink II from Shimano.
Chris
 

HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
Power to weight ratio:
The Cytronex powered Trek FX bike weighs 17Kg and has a great deal of torque, as those who tried it on steep hills will testify. What counts is power to weight ratio, and a fit cyclist can ride a Cytronex powered bike up an average hill at 19-20mph if fitted with an ‘off road’ motor. This motor will have the same power as the legal one but is higher speed as already pointed out in this forum. Our design is very quick and easy to swap wheels - twist the waterproof connector and pull down and then just undo the wheel nuts. This was the motor I used in the race and the hill climb. I should have chosen a slower motor for the hill climb but I heard that it was only 0.5 mile which I can sustain at about 17-18mph. So I was a long way ahead and when I saw another half mile of relentless climb I suddenly lost the will to live! As a result the speed dropped down in to the low torque zone of the motor and I dropped from about 18 to about 12mph! Next year I will know and will step down a speed or two.
Mark, one question about the motors you are using in the Trek and the high speed version. Is it the 160rpm version for the road? And what do you use for the racing version? Do you use the sensorless motor? Sorry that might be 2 or 3 questions.
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Dahon Jetstream Conversion?

A while back, I toyed with the idea of of fitting a Tongxin motor to my Dahon Jetstream Folder.
A few things put me off the idea, poor communication from Tongxin, the unreliability of controllers as experienced by other members and last but not least, the motor would not fit the existing Kinetix-Q suspended front forks which I would be loath to replace.

However, the Cytronex sytem, if proved reliable and if it became available as a kit, could make an excellent lightweight and very neat conversion. That still leaves the large stumbling block of the front forks.

There are a lot of ifs, but it has got me thinking again.

I would welcome some expert advice on this one.

John
 

prState

Pedelecer
Jun 14, 2007
244
0
Las Vegas, Nevada
Hah, I didn't even notice this thread about the trek nano before I started asking about a Trek and bionx motor. I believe customer service to the States could be problematic for me though.
 

Mark/Cytronex

Pedelecer
May 22, 2008
89
4
Winchester
www.no-hills.com
Questions

Yes it is the sensorless motor. The off road version I raced is about 35% faster than the road version.

Assuming the forks problem with the Jetstream was the width, we will have a solution to this soon.

However, the kit is not imminent because as mentioned we won't release it until I am happy that it is possible for anyone to achieve a very neat solution. At the moment the man hours and expertise that goes into every bike at our site in Winchester makes it impractical as a kit.

In fact we have decided that our launch Presteigne show price of £950 for the Cytronex Powered Trek 7.3FX will increase to £995 at the start of next month, due to the cost of production. The extra battery cost will stay at £150. You can still get the show price this week but the new price will take effect from 1st June.

We decided to sell direct (you will be able to buy online at no-hills.com very soon) because we wanted to achieve the lowest possible retail price for Cytronex to get more people using the bicycle for transport.

Even so achieving a very low price has proved difficult, not just because of the man hours involved but also because of the quality of our components. In the absence of the full web site I think it is therefore a good idea for me to give a few examples of this below:

Every Cytronex battery contains a very expensive component called a switching regulator which is designed to deliver stable, optimum power to the lighting system with very high efficiency. The lights can be used for up to one hour after the power assistance has ceased, and would run for about 35 hours non stop without the power assistance (this is not a low power setting).

Our lights include the new 40 lux Busch & Muller IQ Fly and our own Datalite which illuminates the trip computer direct from the battery. For serious commuters you need to know your speed, time, distance, etc. at all times, and those trip computers that do have back lights tend to get through batteries at an alarming rate.

There are showerproof batteries and there are waterproof batteries, having taken two other ebike batteries apart we were shocked to find that neither were properly sealed. Perhaps this is not that surprising however, because the cost of providing a properly sealed battery is high – for example we incorporate a Gore Tex vent in every battery - very expensive (frankly too expensive!) but none the less necessary.

All our connectors are high quality waterproof connectors, not cheap showerproof ones.

The switches we use are also used in the electric Lotus in the States.

We use Swiss DT spokes in our wheel builds for optimum strength.

And of course we are using Trek bikes!
 

frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
Mark,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for putting out a great design and some informative postings. I think your bike looks and sounds superb and, if it proves reliable, will be a better all-round option for someone who wants to ride a bike but have a bit of help on the hills than any other legal electric bike being marketed. I think that the Tongxin motor is so much better than other motors that it is hard for those who have ridden bikes with other hub motors, but not tried a Tongxin, to conceive how good it is! I am also sure that the Trek bike you are using as the basis will be vastly more pleasant and efficient to ride than any electric bike on the market.
My only concern is reliability of the Tongxin components, in particular the controller.

Is there a reliability issue with Tongxin?

...We have done thousands of miles with our prototypes with no failures at all. I have also seen and researched the references to controller problems on the web and found that they originate from very few sources...

...During our testing phase we had a bike wired up with all manner of sensors, we did not find any issues whatsoever with our controllers overheating so I have no idea where these purported problems emanate from or indeed whether any of them are the Tongxin controllers at all.
I tried to put a Tongxin motor into a mid-range 700c hybrid bike a few months ago, and it was awesome while it lasted, but only gave me about 200 miles before the electrics packed up. Before I built mine I researched it extensively and, at the time found plenty of innuendo but no conclusive evidence of anyone actually saying their controller had failed. However, I know that mine failled and I've since read accounts such as on Endless Sphere, where others have had Tongxin controller failure. I also know from Tony Castles, who makes the Nano kits, that he has seen some failure of Tongxin controllers (but believes the latest batch is better). I also understand from a previous thread on here that, although the AtoB review held back some facts, the Schwinn bike they reviewed did actually use a Tongxin controller and that AtoB had two controller failures during their test.

I think that, because of the experiences of others that I've outlined above, an application using Tongxin does need to be able to give a level of comfort to prospective purchasers that is not needed for say, a Suzhou Bafang or a Crystalyte system. However, I also would like to believe that there is a range of operating conditions that the Tongxin will be able to reliably cope with and give great performance. I feel that if you are able to answer the questions below fully, providing the evidence to support reliability, then you have easily the best bike on the market and deserve every success for getting great but tricky technology to work properly, and no-one should have concerns about buying one of your bikes:

  • In all your testing, have you really never had a Tongxin controller fail?
  • How many controllers have you tested?
  • How many trouble-free miles (to the nearest couple of hundred!) have you got from each of the controllers you have used for your main trials?
  • What level of voltage and current have you bench-tested the controller up to, and for what period of time have you run the tests at those levels?
 

Mark/Cytronex

Pedelecer
May 22, 2008
89
4
Winchester
www.no-hills.com
Questions

I will answer your questions because I think they are good well intentioned ones. However, I won't be such a regular contributor for the rest of the week due to the number of orders to deal with!

1. Firstly I can honestly say no, I have not had a single controller failure. I am a businessman who happens to have an environmental conscience, and if I had experienced problems I would have ditched the technology a long time ago.

2. Six.

3. 500 on average before we changed to a new generation of prototype. The only trouble we have had is with lithium batteries (that we shelved), and some dodgy connections in the early prototypes. These were down to my own inept soldering as opposed to the military specification crimping tools and waterproof connectors we use for production.

4. We generally don’t bench test because we prefer to test things in the real world. We did however test the stall current cut out by rigging up a bike with the brake on and increasing braking. We managed to wear down some brake blocks and cause a nasty smell but we did not succeed in burning out a controller, it simply cut out each time when it reached the limit of 15 amps. Another relevant example is the Presteigne hill climb. I have already described in this thread what happened, but what is important is that I used a stupidly fast motor thinking the hill climb was half a mile and it turned out to be a mile and I still came third. So for half a mile of steep hill the motor was doing about 2/3rds of the minimum speed it wanted to be doing - and despite this I had no problems.

We have been genuinely baffled by the questions we have had about reliability in this forum as this has not been our experience at all. Our best guess is as follows:
The Schwinn bike used a Pedelec function which we dismissed out of hand. We found that the pedal sensors were appalling pieces of tat and chucked them straight in the bin (well actually, the recycling bin). Also the way this works with power lurching in and out is crazy. We want the user to be in control and have power when they want it which is why you press the button and get full power (or the slower speed if you want) and it cuts whenever you press the brake. We have had a superb experience in this way.

However, we have only used the bike from standstill accidentally. We stipulate that 5mph is the minimum speed, and preferably slightly higher. This is because we know that a sensorless motor does not perform well from zero and also because there is a huge waste of energy starting from zero which is unnecessary on a proper bike. I think, and I must admit I can't be certain, that our experience with the system is down to two things: firstly the way our system works and secondly because we always use the system at a sensible speed. Doing this we have had thousands of trouble free miles and also developed a fantastic form of transport which is a great deal of fun.

It is still possible to do a hill climb by putting the bike in third gear, ensure you are in ‘slow speed’, setting off under your own steam then pressing the boost button once you are moving and finally selecting fast speed once you are doing something like 7mph. However Cytronex has been developed to get people from A to B fast and if they wish, without too much exertion (otherwise they just get there faster). It is an efficiency based transport solution. It is not designed for people who don’t want to pedal (although technically this is possible) and being a light weight bicycle which is also a very nice ride without the motor, there really is no reason to use it from zero mph. I think those who don’t want to pedal should probably look elsewhere, but for those who enjoy cycling, Cytronex really is a fantastic experience!
 

fishingpaul

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 24, 2007
871
86
I really dont think this new company is being given a fair chance,they have come up with a reasonably priced good looking lightweight bike,people are talking about reliability problems, before any problems are known to exist, the controller being used may not be the same as previous unreliable ones,i am sure if these sellers were paying to advertise there bikes on this site, there would be warnings given about the nature of some of the postings.
 

frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
Thanks Mark,

I have no more questions! I have to say that, based on your answers, I'd have no hesitation in ordering one of your bikes. I'd advise anyone reasonably fit and who is not looking for a power-only type bike to try one of these before buying anything else. I believe that it would provide very good hill climbing performance - perhaps not to Panasonic motor standards - but, because of the gearing and weight, better than most other hub motor powered bikes.

Paul,

I can see where you are coming from but I think it is a little different. Mark has confirmed that he is using controllers from Tongxin, which many people, including me, have had problems with. He's explained fully his experience. As a potential buyer, that is what I'd want to know, and if I were selling these bikes, I'd want to have this information available to answer those who will have concerns!
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
Mark,

Thanks for giving such honest and forthright answers, like Frank, I think you do need to have a defence prepared for the critics, as the Tongxin units have shown themselves to be very fragile in the past.

I run a Tonxin motor and controller in my 'bent, and it's fine, no problems at all in several hundred miles. I feel sure that my controller is a "prototype" of the newer versions, as it has some odd "uprating" figures added to the label on bits of sticky tape.

I sincerely hope that Tongxin have now resolved all the problems they initially had, but am afraid that you will have to deal with the uphill struggle of trying to overcome the bad press they've had on various internet forums for the past few months. It's fair to say that much of the negative comment has arisen from an Australian dealer, who seems to have been caught in some sort of dispute with Tongxin and opted to go public about it on the Endless Sphere forum (probably the biggest ebike forum on the web).

Unfortunately, it's very easy for a product's reputation to be lost, all it takes is a few well-publicised failures, even if there are thousands of units working well.

I wish you well with your product; without a shadow of doubt the Tongxin is a superb unit when it works well, with virtually no drag when pedalling, very little added weight and simple wiring. It really is the perfect system for building a bike that doesn't look as if it has a motor.

Jeremy
 

Chris_Bike

Pedelecer
May 20, 2008
159
0
Birmingham
Mark,

Thanks for giving such honest and forthright answers, like Frank, I think you do need to have a defence prepared for the critics, as the Tongxin units have shown themselves to be very fragile in the past.

I run a Tonxin motor and controller in my 'bent, and it's fine, no problems at all in several hundred miles. I feel sure that my controller is a "prototype" of the newer versions, as it has some odd "uprating" figures added to the label on bits of sticky tape.

I sincerely hope that Tongxin have now resolved all the problems they initially had, but am afraid that you will have to deal with the uphill struggle of trying to overcome the bad press they've had on various internet forums for the past few months. It's fair to say that much of the negative comment has arisen from an Australian dealer, who seems to have been caught in some sort of dispute with Tongxin and opted to go public about it on the Endless Sphere forum (probably the biggest ebike forum on the web).

Unfortunately, it's very easy for a product's reputation to be lost, all it takes is a few well-publicised failures, even if there are thousands of units working well.

I wish you well with your product; without a shadow of doubt the Tongxin is a superb unit when it works well, with virtually no drag when pedalling, very little added weight and simple wiring. It really is the perfect system for building a bike that doesn't look as if it has a motor.

Jeremy
Thanks for giving us an update on your recumbent Jeremy. Like Paul, I feel that there has been rather too much negativism on this thread. After all, it has now had about 1600 views and all the doubts seem to come from a single source (with, as you state, re-inforcement from an Aussie forum where other isssues may be at play). I was going to re-post the link to your original thread on the bent project to couter balance a bit!

Anyway, as I have said before, the proof of the pudding........ I expect to have my bikes by the end of the week (which, if achieved, will be within 2 weeks of placing the order - somewhat faster that the norm for Ebikes, I understand!) I intend to get as many miles under my wheels in the early weeks as work allows and I will certainly be posting regular updates on my first impressions.

Chris
 

Chris_Bike

Pedelecer
May 20, 2008
159
0
Birmingham
Trek's ready for collection

I've just heard from Mark (No-Hills.com) that our two Treks will be available tomorrow :) (that's 12 days from ordering). I'm going to collect them on Saturday and CANNOT WAIT!

I will post first impressions as soon as I can test them out.

Chris
 

Chris_Bike

Pedelecer
May 20, 2008
159
0
Birmingham
Les Treks sont arrive!

Collected the bikes fron Mark and Sam this morning...... Wow, they look every bit as normal and bike-like as they did in Presteigne. They had the decorators in working on their new showrooms (2 mins from Winchester Station). I enjoyed a cup of tea, was given full instructions about the bikes, charging the batteries and was on my way back to Birmingham inside the hour.

I am now charging batteries prior to their first ride out to a country pub. I will report back (in a new thread) on my return (assuming sobriety is maintained).

Chris