20mph speed limit -applies to bikes ?

[jazper53]

Well if thats the case then if you are rich and or famous you will get off on a technicality ie no speedo,if you are a mere pleb like the rest of us then expect a speeding ticket

If you are required to observe the speed limit then it would be logical to assume you would be required by law to have a speedometer, if not, I think it would be a valid defense against a speeding conviction

 

[morphix]

Well if thats the case then if you are rich and or famous you will get off on a technicality ie no speedo,if you are a mere pleb like the rest of us then expect a speeding ticket

We don't need speedo's on bikes at present because very few bikes can go to 30-40mph unless going downhill eh, or you're an tour de France cyclist ;-)

The 20mph limit would change all that though and bring the limit into the cycling zone which could easily be crossed by many of us e-bikers. As the last poster said, if you were regularly cycling through these 20mph zones then a speedo would be a must for the small cost anyway.

 

[amigafan2003]

Just checked with my Unions legal dept.

Cyclists* cannot be prosecuted for speeding - RTRA 1984 sections 81.1 and 89.1 and rule 124 of the Highway Code - so ignore those 20mph limits at your leisure.

They did however add that if it's a local byelaw (unlikely but possible), then you can be fined, but it would be a civil offence and enforecement would by via the council/local authority and not the Police.

Of course, they might not be able to prosecute you for speeding but the option of cycling furiously or wanton and dangeours driving is still there although few mph above the speed limit is unilkely to meet the criteria for eather.

*for the sake of confusion, a legal ebike is by definition a cycle.

 

[GaRRy]

Getting back to the original post...20mph speed limit, yes it will apply to bikes, it will apply to any vehicle that is legally allowed on the road.

Rules....Made for the guidence of fools, and the obedience of wise men......

Getting back to this you are wrong it only applies to motorised vehicles and bicycles dont have a motor. A legal ebike is also specifically not classified as a motorised vehicle but as a bicycle so also treated like normal bike with regaurd to this law.

 

[carpetbagger]

We don't need speedo's on bikes at present because very few bikes can go to 30-40mph unless going downhill eh, or you're an tour de France cyclist ;-)

The 20mph limit would change all that though and bring the limit into the cycling zone which could easily be crossed by many of us e-bikers. As the last poster said, if you were regularly cycling through these 20mph zones then a speedo would be a must for the small cost anyway.

shame they don't do it around here.....after i change the motor sprocket
'i don't have a number plate officer its not required'
'whats my name and where do i live.............. 'hahahaha Lord Lucan,no fixed abode !'

 

[morphix]

Just checked with my Unions legal dept.

Cyclists* cannot be prosecuted for speeding - RTRA 1984 sections 81.1 and 89.1 and rule 124 of the Highway Code - so ignore those 20mph limits at your leisure.

They did however add that if it's a local byelaw (unlikely but possible), then you can be fined, but it would be a civil offence and enforecement would by via the council/local authority and not the Police.

Of course, they might not be able to prosecute you for speeding but the option of cycling furiously or wanton and dangeours driving is still there although few mph above the speed limit is unilkely to meet the criteria for eather.

*for the sake of confusion, a legal ebike is by definition a cycle.

Let's just hope the central government doesn't think these 20mph limits are a good idea then and order the police to enforce them! The Councils will have great difficulty and cost doing this as a by-law, it will be practically unenforceable to do on a wide scale across the country. I expect there's only going to be a few of them anyway (if any) in areas where's there been a lot of accidents or complaints of excessive traffic noise by houses etc.. not something we need to worry about too much.

 

[flecc]

there seems to be differences of opinion on whether UK road speed limits apply to bicycles. As far as I'm aware, they apply to everyone on the road, including cyclists.

No, the general road speed limits do not apply. That is because the speed limits are incorporated in motor vehicle law, and legal e-bikes and pedelecs are specifically not motor vehicles. No-one has to comply with law that does not apply to them. For example, shops are forbidden to sell knives to juveniles, but you can give your child a knife to use for cooking, gardening etc if you wish since you are not bound by that law. They cannot carry it through the streets unless wrapped and sealed though, since that is expressly forbidden by another law, so you could be guilty of an offence if you knowingly allowed them to do so.

N.B. Crossed with some preceding posts.
.

 

[carpetbagger]

No, the general road speed limits do not apply. That is because the speed limits are incorporated in motor vehicle law, and legal e-bikes and pedelecs are specifically not motor vehicles. No-one has to comply with law that does not apply to them. For example, shops are forbidden to sell knives to juveniles, but you can give your child a knife to use for cooking, gardening etc if you wish since you are not bound by that law. They cannot carry it through the streets unless wrapped and sealed though, since that is expressly forbidden by another law, so you could be guilty of an offence if you knowingly allowed them to do so.




N.B. Crossed with some preceding posts.
.

so the moral of this is don't do 25mph waving a samurai sword as its the sword that will get you arrested not the bike ................

 

[carpetbagger]

so the moral of this is don't do 25mph waving a samurai sword as its the sword that will get you arrested not the bike ................

but if you keep it in the box you will be fine...........

 

[amigafan2003]

but if you keep it in the box you will be fine...........

Yup - when I carried my sword to KT meetings I had to have it in a locked box.

It make something already heavy, bloody heavy!

 

[carpetbagger]

Yup - when I carried my sword to KT meetings I had to have it in a locked box.

It make something already heavy, bloody heavy!

'ok sonny,you were speeding in a 20 mph zone,what have you got in the box ?'
leg starts to feel warm...............

 

[flecc]

but if you keep it in the box you will be fine...........

Unless you fall into the trap that youngsters so often do, saying its for self-protection. No amount of wrapping stops a prosecution then.

 

[jackhandy]

Appropos of nothing.....

Did you know that Any implement having a locking blade must be kept in a locked container (toolbox) whilst being transported?

A few years ago there was a bout of hysteria regarding utility (stanley) knives & a few tradesmen received Cautions, which go on your record, for having a multitool in the glovebox.

 

[amigafan2003]

A few years ago there was a bout of hysteria regarding utility (stanley) knives & a few tradesmen received Cautions, which go on your record, for having a multitool in the glovebox.

Which is ridiculous as you're "allowed to carry a knife in public with "good reason"".

The statutes even give examples of (but doesn't define) "good reason" as "religious duty", "national dress" and "requirement of employment or hobby".

Coppers in "not knowing the law or how to apply it" shocker!

 

[RobF]

Which is ridiculous as you're "allowed to carry a knife in public with "good reason"".

The statutes even give examples of (but doesn't define) "good reason" as "religious duty", "national dress" and "requirement of employment or hobby".

Knife carrying criminals know this.

Part of my day job involves the court.

I've heard this excuse from defendants several times:

"The knife was in my pocket because I'd been helping someone lay a carpet earlier."

 

[SRS]

They would probably seize the bike, since kit bikes intrinsically break the laws in many ways. They are never tested to the EN15194 standard or the BS standard if UK compliant. They have no frame plate giving the required details for UK compliant e-bikes. 250 watt ones often have independently acting throttles. Therefore having a 350 watt label on the motor is the least of your potential troubles.

N.B. Crossed with Morphix's edit
.

I just miss the days when one could take three planks of wood, a few nails and a pair of pram axles and wheels.

A few friends building go carts, the biggest hill around and stupid speeds. Great fun.
What health and safety?

Not one mention of speed limits, EN numbers, seizing of go carts, wheels too big, etc etc.
Just people living their lives. It was a great world.

Shame it's all gone and our future generations will not know the joys we knew as youngsters and young adults. EN numbers, food additives, limits and fines on this and that.

Is this progress?

 

[flecc]

Shame it's all gone and our future generations will not know the joys we knew as youngsters and young adults. EN numbers, food additives, limits and fines on this and that.

Is this progress?

No, it's certainly not good progress, rather it's more like self-generation of ever increasing problems.

Unfortunately the very public it harms make it impossible to reverse, for it seems many get attached to the changes and younger generations who know nothing of the past don't want to go there.

Just try getting seat belt law overturned and see the furious reaction, yet when it was introduced the overwhelming majority of the public were angrily against the compulsion. Or try letting your five year old walk to school on their own as we used and see what happens.

 

[Old_Dave]

I'm sure that most of us remember when "one for the road" was socially acceptable...thus some progress is good progress and some ain't


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Good morning all,

Another short report for your interest.

On Monday, as a representative of BEBA, I was in a meeting with the DfT in London with Mark Loveridge Hero and BEBA, Alan Cater tech consultant BAGB and Phillip Darnton Exec Director BAGB amongst others from government and the trade to put the final touches to the proposal that will be put to ministers within the next few weeks. A proposal that will finally nail down the regs for both non assisted bikes and EAPCs, (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles) now to be the official recognised name for pedelecs in the UK. The purpose of the meeting was to take as much confusion and red tape out of all regs appertaining to bicycles of any type with special emphasis on EAPCs.

We discussed general topics such as bells or AWDs (Audible Warning Devices), brakes, reflectors and bike sizes, and matters that concern EAPCs in particular.

I imagine no one within this thread is particularly interested in the general topics, so I will give you a brief overview of the proposal with respect to EAPCs.

1. We will adopt the updated EN19154 regs in the UK. The updated regs are far more stringent than the existing 2009 EN15194 with particular concentration on safety, particularly wiring and batteries including vigorous tests on battery case safety.

2. Throttles to 25kph will be allowed as long as EAPCs with throttles have been officially Type Approved through the VCA. Such EAPCs are currently referred to as Electric Bikes.

3. Electric Bikes with a throttle and Type Approval that otherwise conform to EN15194 will be considered in the UK as EAPCs in law, therefore road license, insurance and helmet helmet wearing will not be compulsory. Such bikes can be ridden on public roads legally by anyone over the age of 14.

4. The current EN definitions with regard to motor power will remain in force.

5. "Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective.

6. The target date for the inclusion in law of the above is 2016.

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

Although rates of acceleration are and will continue to be specified, there is nothing in EN15194 old or new that specifies the relationship between the input of the rider and the speed of the EAPC. Basically as long as the pedals are rotating in a forward direction however slowly, even if the rotation of the pedals is not contributing to driving the bike at all, a full throttle is still legal up to 25kph.

All the above points are my interpretation only, and should not be relied upon in a court of law or when designing or manufacturing Electric Bikes or EAPCs.

I hope this is of some use.

We at BEBA are putting in a massive amount of effort (and our own cash!!) to make certain that EAPC users in the UK are not disadvantaged in any way, in deed we are looking to make our regs in the UK more lenient than elsewhere in Europe. Although we now have 15 full members we would welcome the help from any manufacturer, distributor or dealer that is interested in the progression of Electric Bike and EAPC use in the UK.

All the best

David

 

[jazper53]

Good morning all,

Another short report for your interest.

On Monday, as a representative of BEBA, I was in a meeting with the DfT in London with Mark Loveridge Hero and BEBA, Alan Cater tech consultant BAGB and Phillip Darnton Exec Director BAGB amongst others from government and the trade to put the final touches to the proposal that will be put to ministers within the next few weeks. A proposal that will finally nail down the regs for both non assisted bikes and EAPCs, (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles) now to be the official recognised name for pedelecs in the UK. The purpose of the meeting was to take as much confusion and red tape out of all regs appertaining to bicycles of any type with special emphasis on EAPCs.

We discussed general topics such as bells or AWDs (Audible Warning Devices), brakes, reflectors and bike sizes, and matters that concern EAPCs in particular.

I imagine no one within this thread is particularly interested in the general topics, so I will give you a brief overview of the proposal with respect to EAPCs.

1. We will adopt the updated EN19154 regs in the UK. The updated regs are far more stringent than the existing 2009 EN15194 with particular concentration on safety, particularly wiring and batteries including vigorous tests on battery case safety.

2. Throttles to 25kph will be allowed as long as EAPCs with throttles have been officially Type Approved through the VCA. Such EAPCs are currently referred to as Electric Bikes.

3. Electric Bikes with a throttle and Type Approval that otherwise conform to EN15194 will be considered in the UK as EAPCs in law, therefore road license, insurance and helmet helmet wearing will not be compulsory. Such bikes can be ridden on public roads legally by anyone over the age of 14.

4. The current EN definitions with regard to motor power will remain in force.

5. "Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective.

6. The target date for the inclusion in law of the above is 2016.

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

Although rates of acceleration are and will continue to be specified, there is nothing in EN15194 old or new that specifies the relationship between the input of the rider and the speed of the EAPC. Basically as long as the pedals are rotating in a forward direction however slowly, even if the rotation of the pedals is not contributing to driving the bike at all, a full throttle is still legal up to 25kph.

All the above points are my interpretation only, and should not be relied upon in a court of law or when designing or manufacturing Electric Bikes or EAPCs.

I hope this is of some use.

We at BEBA are putting in a massive amount of effort (and our own cash!!) to make certain that EAPC users in the UK are not disadvantaged in any way, in deed we are looking to make our regs in the UK more lenient than elsewhere in Europe. Although we now have 15 full members we would welcome the help from any manufacturer, distributor or dealer that is interested in the progression of Electric Bike and EAPC use in the UK.

All the best

David

In reference to column 2 TYPE APPROVED what does that mean ? and will this include standard full throttles supplied previously to regulation made law, as long all other standards meet with EN15194, or is this a over simplification