20mph speed limit -applies to bikes ?

[carpetbagger]

Is a bike with an off road button/switch illegal ?
Technically my bike is illegal with the motor sprocket mod....if i am 6th/7th gear.....below that it is still legal as it cuts out at 15.5 ish mph....or is it ?
As regards the 20mph limit for bicycles unless they are going to enforce a speedo law then they cannot possibly apply it as it is impossible to guess the speed you are doing without one.
I have also done 42mph in 30mph zone past a speed camera...did i know ? not until i got home and checked the gps as i don't ride with my head down glued to it,i concentrate on the road.

 

[flecc]

Hi Garry,

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

Mountainsport

It's not only just not worth doing and unnecessary, the Vehicle Inspectorate wouldn't welcome the extra unnecessary work and anyway, it still wouldn't always achieve legality under the forthcoming EU law. This requires all e-bikes to comply to EN15194 and for that to be certified by a registered testing laboratory. Clearly this law doesn't have any provision for kit bikes/self builds, and there seems to be no inclination at the EU to address this at present.

Best to continue with the pseudo legality we have at present, matching either UK or EU requirements, but not a pick-a-mix of the two. Then from 2016 or when it finally gets implemented, the Europe wide law.
.

 

[flecc]

Is a bike with an off road button/switch illegal ?
Technically my bike is illegal with the motor sprocket mod....if i am 6th/7th gear.....below that it is still legal as it cuts out at 15.5 ish mph....or is it ?
As regards the 20mph limit for bicycles unless they are going to enforce a speedo law then they cannot possibly apply it as it is impossible to guess the speed you are doing without one.
I have also done 42mph in 30mph zone past a speed camera...did i know ? not until i got home and checked the gps as i don't ride with my head down glued to it,i concentrate on the road.

Yes, the switch is illegal since it's under the rider's control, and the same applies to your sprocket, the bike is capable of illegal assist speeds under your control. And because of that, the 42 mph was an offence since your modified e-bike is a motor vehicle, no longer a bicycle in law like a legal e-bike. Not having a speedometer is no defence, it's actually another offence since motor vehicles have to have one.

 

[morphix]

Yes, the switch is illegal since it's under the rider's control, and the same applies to your sprocket, the bike is capable of illegal assist speeds under your control. And because of that, the 42 mph was an offence since your modified e-bike is a motor vehicle, no longer a bicycle in law like a legal e-bike. Not having a speedometer is no defence, it's actually another offence since motor vehicles have to have one.

For sure, ignorance of the law is never a defence in any situation. Bikes used to be sold with these off-road switches fitted in the early days (like Whispers) but then they stopped doing it, and supplied them as optional extras to fit yourself (no doubt to remove any liability over to the owner!).

I think you'd be best to avoid having anything which makes your bike not road legal if you're using it on the road, just in case you're ever unlucky enough to be in an accident. Also why draw attention to yourself from the police by going faster than what is reasonably expected on a bicycle? If you do that you're basically giving them an excuse to pull you over and check you for legal compliance and risk all the offences of riding an unlicensed motor bicycle.

I guess it depends on the situation and area where you live...in rural areas you might get away with it, but in towns and urban areas, I think you're taking a big gamble. Also you have to consider fellow e-bike owners.. we're lucky that the law is relaxed (not enforced) and e-bike market is unregulated...but that situation could change if people start riding crazy bikes at crazy speeds and one or two accidents occur. A knee-jerk reaction would be likely from the government and we'd all lose our freedoms we enjoy at present.

 

[GaRRy]

Hi Garry,

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

Mountainsport

On top of Fleccs answer why would you bother as it would be far cheaper,easier and safer to just go out and buy a fully functioning moped/motor bike.

 

[morphix]

On top of Fleccs answer why would you bother as it would be far cheaper,easier and safer to just go out and buy a fully functioning moped/motor bike.

Definitely. If you need to ride at speeds over 20mph without pedalling then why not just buy an electric moped that's already road approved, then you're road legal and don't have to worry about accidents or what speed you're doing near police etc (within the legal limits of course!).

 

[carpetbagger]

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?
Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.
I am tempted to put my motor sprocket back to the standard one,then i can legally pass the camera at 42 mph

 

[GaRRy]

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?
Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.
I am tempted to put my motor sprocket back to the standard one,then i can legally pass the camera at 42 mph

Simple as with other things in the past (CB Radios) or even now (Bongs and other "smoking" stuff, mini motos, powered skateboards) they are not illegal to sell but depending on use can be illegal to use.

In reality virtually no bike sold is legal and most claim to be EN15194 compliant but that has not yet ben passed into UK law (Although UK is obliged to do so) and not aware of any bikes that you can buy that meet current uk law.

 

[flecc]

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?
Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.

But once the suppliers like Wisper realised the off-road switches are illegal, they removed them, all the evidence we need.

As for the high speed e-bikes sold here such as those at 50cycles, look closely and you'll see they have a rear number plate bracket as standard. Their site also warns they need to be registered etc.

So there's no commercial anomalies, other than those of the irresponsible suppliers who don't care about the law.

 

[morphix]

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?
Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.
I am tempted to put my motor sprocket back to the standard one,then i can legally pass the camera at 42 mph

Technically, e-bike manufacturers (or sellers) are not breaking the law by selling an e-bike that is not road legal. I mean, it's not illegal to sell one or own one. It's only an offence to ride it on the road.

However, you could argue that manufacturers and retailers have a legal responsibility to make it clear to consumers in advertising that the bike is not legal to ride on roads. At present very few retailers and manufacturers of non-road legal bikes do that. But still, the onus is on the buyer to check the law and whether the bike is in compliance, so you'd not get very far I expect if you tried to sue the seller for misleading advertising.

I suspect it's more an issue for the Advertising Standards Authority to deal with.

 

[carpetbagger]

Crazy really,you can buy cars that do 200mph but you can't do that and they are not illegal on uk roads.
Buy a bike that will do over 15.5mph +-5% and its illegal. It should only be illegal if you break the respective speed limit.

 

[jazper53]

I assume the largest % of e-bikes that are regarded as illegal are bikes with 250w motors with full throttle, would it not be easy to temporarily or permanently disable the throttle to comply with EN15194, if people are so concerned about the legality ?

 

[GaRRy]

Crazy really,you can buy cars that do 200mph but you can't do that and they are not illegal on uk roads.
Buy a bike that will do over 15.5mph +-5% and its illegal. It should only be illegal if you break the respective speed limit.

But those 200 mph cars comply with all the legal regualtions and type approval laws that apply to let them be used on the road a illegal ebike does not. As for your idea, as a lot of cyclists can travel at more than 15.5 mph on a normal bike how would that work exactly ?

 

[GaRRy]

I assume the largest % of e-bikes that are regarded as illegal are bikes with 250w motors with full throttle, would it not be easy to temporarily or permanently disable the throttle to comply with EN15194, if people are so concerned about the legality ?

As I see it a tempoary disablement would be like a offroad switch completely illegal as it can be easily used.

And actually currently ALL bike thet comply with EN15194 are illegal in UK as that has not been passed into law. The big question is when it is will throttles be allowed ?.

 

[morphix]

Crazy really,you can buy cars that do 200mph but you can't do that and they are not illegal on uk roads.
Buy a bike that will do over 15.5mph +-5% and its illegal. It should only be illegal if you break the respective speed limit.

It seems like that, but there's some logic and rationale behind having this tight restriction on e-bikes. Remember e-bikes are classed as bicycles within the definition of the law, not electric motor vehicles, so they must perform to the limits of what one would reasonably expect from a bicycle.

It's important we have a clear gap and distinction between e-bikes/bicycles, and electric mopeds. Because you have to remember that bicycles and e-bikes have the flexibility electric mopeds don't, i.e. no need for license/CBT, insurance, plus the ability to ride on footpaths etc. Once you change the parameters and allow faster speeds on e-bikes, that all changes and e-bikes then become a risk to owners and public alike, requiring tighter regulations and safety controls.

Some might argue that 15.5mph is a bit measly and it could be a bit higher, since people can pedal faster than that in some cases.. but I think it's about maintaining that clear gap and distinction..that the e-bike is not an electric vehicle, it's a bicycle and the electric power is only meant to provide assistance (under EU law) and not replace the normal pedalling function of a bicycle.

If you had e-bikes allowed to move at 20mph or 25mph, who would be able to pedal and keep up with that? You'd need very high gearing and then you'd be moving even faster speeds well into moped/electric motorbike territory, and most bicycles are not designed for those sorts of speeds from a safety point of view.

 

[amigafan2003]

However, you could argue that manufacturers and retailers have a legal responsibility to make it clear to consumers in advertising that the bike is not legal to ride on roads.

I don't agree at all.

When I buy a kitchen knife I don't see it plastered with stickers or the cashier reminding me not to stab someone with it.

 

[carpetbagger]

But those 200 mph cars comply with all the legal regualtions and type approval laws that apply to let them be used on the road a illegal ebike does not. As for your idea, as a lot of cyclists can travel at more than 15.5 mph on a normal bike how would that work exactly ?

It should be the case that you can buy the high powered bikes if you so wish and use it within the law,it then becomes illegal if you were doing over the 15.5 mph assist and were 'caught' or were involved in an accident and it was proven that you were using the bikes 'excess' speed'
If you took your 200 mph car out for a 90mph spin and you had an accident then you would you be insured ? and you would be breaking the law ?.

 

[flecc]

Crazy really,you can buy cars that do 200mph but you can't do that and they are not illegal on uk roads.
Buy a bike that will do over 15.5mph +-5% and its illegal. It should only be illegal if you break the respective speed limit.

Drivers are tested for competence and insured against third party risks, e-bikers can be anyone, uninsured, mentally incompetent, almost blind, severely delayed reaction times etc. Even 15 mph is generous in those circumstances.

 

[amigafan2003]

Hi Garry,

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

Mountainsport

Becuase then you might as well buy a motorbike, which as a purpose designed "motor vehicle", will do everything better than an ebike that's registered as a "motor vehicle".

 

[carpetbagger]

Drivers are tested for competence and insured against third party risks, e-bikers can be anyone, uninsured, mentally incompetent, almost blind, severely delayed reaction times etc. Even 15 mph is generous in those circumstances.

I would dispute the drivers part ! If had my way i would see 75% taken off the roads,talking on phones,not using indicators,lane discipline,speed,overtaking,travelling to close,not cleaning widows in bad weather,drinks in hand,smoking...etc etc