20mph speed limit -applies to bikes ?
- Thread starter KirstinS
- Start date
Ah,so my bike is just as illegal as most throttle bikes then which makes it even crazier
Yeah, we might not even be EU members by then the way things are going, or certainly our relationship and legal situation with the EU may have changed significantly. If the UK wishes to, it may continue to allow the throttle-without-pedalling provision perhaps..
Well the legal situation is complicated because UK at present does allow the use throttle without pedalling up to 15.5mph. The EU directive overrides that and sets the limit at 6km/h, but the UK has either not fully ratified that into UK law or repealed the old law allowing the use of throttles at higher speed. So we have two contradictory laws basically and tolerance of throttles without pedalling in UK for the time being.Ah,so my bike is just as illegal as most throttle bikes then which makes it even crazier
I've seen it said, that even if the UK does fully bring our law in-line with the EU directive (which seems just a few years away if we remain EU members), that it won't be applied retrospectively to existing bikes that have throttles fitted and the ability to move without pedalling to 15.5mph. That's pretty straightforward if you have a bike purchased before the law change, but I'm not sure where it will leave us kit owners.. if you have receipts for all your kit dating to before the law change, then you'd probably be ok if the police started checking e-bikes...but that seems unlikely anyway, unless you're drawing attention to yourself or whizzing past a copper without pedalling and he's bored!
Our record on e-bike law is much harsher than the EU one. For past and current examples, 12 mph assist limit, 200 watts absolute maximum (no excess peak power allowed), 14 years lower age limit which no other EU country has. These are why e-biking stood still for two decades here.
So I prefer to stay with the more generous EU rather than the miserly British government, throttles weren't any use with 200 watts peak power, and as for 12 mph - - - - - -
This discussion raises an interesting question for the future of e-bikes...
Let's say the UK does end up remaining a full EU member and the UK law is repealed on e-bikes and we fully adopt the EU directive which bans the use of throttles without pedalling.. would this law change go relatively unnoticed (like so many passed through parliament) or would the government embark on a big awareness program with police forces across the country and police suddenly become more clued up on e-bikes and vigilant on the streets of us? It's surprising that the many police are still completely unaware of what an e-bike is and have no clue about the law on them, just like many of the public. I've even found that at my own local police station when asking them questions..they just didn't know!
Let's say the UK does end up remaining a full EU member and the UK law is repealed on e-bikes and we fully adopt the EU directive which bans the use of throttles without pedalling.. would this law change go relatively unnoticed (like so many passed through parliament) or would the government embark on a big awareness program with police forces across the country and police suddenly become more clued up on e-bikes and vigilant on the streets of us? It's surprising that the many police are still completely unaware of what an e-bike is and have no clue about the law on them, just like many of the public. I've even found that at my own local police station when asking them questions..they just didn't know!
That's a good point. Heh that makes it even more complicated then, because the majority of e-bikes on the road are 250W (for the EU legal compliance) but that makes them technically all illegal at present under the still active UK law!
What we really need is just the EU law but with the added option of throttle-only up to 15.5mph and then everything will be hunky dory ;-) Even if we do lose the ability to move without pedalling though, it doesn't mean the end of throttles does it? We can still have them, and pedal a little bit and move along nicely.. it's only likely to be a major nuisance for people very unfit, disabled etc who just can't pedal at all.
EDIT: The EU doesn't do law in piece meal though does it? It's usually all-or-nothing. If we adopt the EU directive then our UK law surely has to be fully repealed....you can't say, oh we'll keep the provision for the throttle use without pedalling part of the UK law while having the EU directive that prohibits it? I'm not sure, maybe that is possible? I don't know how the law is structured at present on e-bikes.
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Maybe, but WILL is good enough for me and it also seems to be for the Traders as well
Good point and that seems the most logical and sensible approach if you're worried.
However, the UK has indicated that the new EU law won't be applied retrospectively to bikes fitted with a throttle before the new EU law is adopted here.
So all us present owners will be excluded from the new restriction*..and the UK law at present does allow the use of throttles without pedalling but as flecc pointed out, only to 200W and 12mph, with the age restriction.
*I haven't had this confirmed from any reliable source yet, but it seems likely.
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That's broadly correct, their laws including orders to remove national legislation. However, within them is often a clause providing for a member country to apply for a variation, and that is the case with type approval for example. That's how Germany was able to provide a high speed class, and later a higher power 500 watt provision. Also, under the EU constitution, every citizen is entitled to any benefit any other EU citizen enjoys, so we can have the same, but only if our government passes into force the appropriate orders. In a democracy that's fair of course, in theory the citizenry can enforce it via the ballot box, but with e-biking such a small interest, it won't work for us.
Well of course its good enough for the traders as its not them thats breaking the law !!!!.
But yea im with you on this.
Here's a thought and question for someone who understands more about the ins and outs and implications of EN15194 on throttle use....
The way I understand it, the EU law doesn't prohibit throttle use, it only restricts moving without pedalling as jazper53 pointed out, to 4mph (this is intended to allow bikes to be pushed more easily, up hills etc). If you're pedalling and using a throttle to control speed, that's allowed... but the motor must only provide power via a throttle while you're pedalling and only up to the 15.5mph limit.
Now here's the grey part I'm unclear about and hoping someone can clarify...
Does the EU law set out clearly how much power is to be provided? Does it have any restriction or clear mechanism to regulate how e-bike controllers operate? Can you see where I'm going?
Let's say you have a throttle fitted and you're pedalling REALLY slowly, but the bike is sufficiently highly geared to get you up to 15.5mph without any real effort. Would that still be a legal e-bike under the EU law, or does the law not permit that and the power has to be proportional to pedalling?
Not the 12 mph, that was our original law, but for harmonisation reasons we have legally adopted 15 mph in the EAPC 1983 law. So it's 200 watts absolute limit, 15 mph assist with or without throttle, 40 kilos weight limit and a 14 years lower age limit.
Trikes can have 250 watts and a 60 kilo weight limit.
The EU and EN15194 do not specify how controllers work, and your proposed condition is legal. Indeed, it's by controller juggling that e-bikes pass EN 15194 while having peak powers up to over 700 watts.
One provision in EU law though, the power has to phase down as it approaches 25 kph (15.6 mph). It does not specify the phase down point or the degree of phase down.
So in other words, either the more effort you put in from pedalling, or the more forward motion the bike has, the less motor assistance you should get out? As you approach the 15.5mph the motor will phase down to prevent the bike obviously going significantly faster than a normal bicycle would eh.
In a way, this then almost makes it desirable to design an e-bike controller like I stated, with maximum legal speed/power for minimum effort, to retain the throttle flexibility but still be within the EU legal compliance for compulsory pedalling while receiving motor assistance!
Perhaps future controllers will adapt to this law change for the throttle-users and have a switch to put the controller into such a mode, for those less fit or less able to pedal hard.
This may have implications for future e-bike design, concerning gearing and internal motor gearing? We'd require much higher gearing to keep up with the motor up to 15.5mph if you only wanted to pedal very lightly.
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Getting back to the original post...20mph speed limit, yes it will apply to bikes, it will apply to any vehicle that is legally allowed on the road.
Rules....Made for the guidence of fools, and the obedience of wise men......
Rules....Made for the guidence of fools, and the obedience of wise men......
I would have thought so yes, but there seems to be differences of opinion on whether UK road speed limits apply to bicycles. As far as I'm aware, they apply to everyone on the road, including cyclists. However the problem is whether a cyclist is capable of knowing they're going over the 20mph limit. But as has been stated, ignorance is no defence under the law.
If these 20mph limits were fully supported by central government and actively enforced and you got done by a police officer who spotted you, then the lack of any speedometer wouldn't be any defence. This 20mph law then, would technically require cyclists capable of doing 20mph to have a speedometer fitted in order to comply with the law.
However this discussion is purely theoretical because:
1) the 20mph by-law some Council's are trying to adopt, are not likely to be practically enforceable by local police authorities who say they're not willing to police them (maybe the police can foresee the can of worms with cyclists, this is likely to open)
2) if the police are not willing to enforce them, speed cameras will have to be used and cyclists won't be able to be prosecuted with no number plates.
Looking at the challenges of introducing a 20mph speed limit, particularly the costs in a time when Council's are under increasing financial pressures..it seems likely very few Council's will be willing to adopt these 20mph limits without the full backing of central government and the police behind them.. its more likely they'll go for a simple low-tech solution to the problem, like speed bumps, or adding pedestrian crossings in these dangerous road spots in built-up areas.
The Council's may just add the 20mph speed signs and hope the majority of motorists will observe them without any camera technology, such is the case with other speed limits pretty much. And then if that's not the case, then the Council will have to look at different enforcement options.
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Well if thats the case then if you are rich and or famous you will get off on a technicality ie no speedo,if you are a mere pleb like the rest of us then expect a speeding ticket
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