Woosh Sirocco CD or Big Bear?

[JohnCade]

I don't know for sure, but I do know that they run out of stock on the popular models that's why Hatti and Andy could take time off in June. The Sport bikes are not their big sellers though, all the 2014 bikes are painted bluish gunmetal colour.

Not quite sure what's happening with their website at the moment. The Sirocco CD was due about a week ago after being put back, and now it's not showing as being for sale at all in most links. The Sport TS is shown with the new specs but the Sport CD is not coming up in links.

I had a look at my bike and it was made in November 2013 so nearly eight months from manufacture. I would expect the shipping to be about six weeks or so from the factory but it might take a little longer. So if that was the last delivery of this model then they must have been hanging around a long time, and I wonder if they charge the battery as they recommend customers do when the bike's not in use?

So basically this is last years model.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

and I wonder if they charge the battery as they recommend customers do when the bike's not in use?

Yes they do. They seem very organised fin that respect. They have a rack with all the batteries in and a charge rota.

 

[CameraDealer]

That's a shame re the pedals. I think it wouldn't be very well balanced bolting it to that part. I would be a bit nervous. Is it pretty solid?

Yes, it's very solid. You can get almost a full revolution of the pedals which has enabled me to sort out the gears today.

My stand is very good with wide legs. Photo attached.

I'm considering one of those Halfords false cross bars mentioned above. It would also make putting it on my motorhome bike rack a bit easier.

I looked them up and they're twenty quid.

Edited to say: I found the photo on the web and it holds the bike on the seat post. I may try that next time.

 

[Woosh]

Not quite sure what's happening with their website at the moment. The Sirocco CD was due about a week ago after being put back, and now it's not showing as being for sale at all in most links. The Sport TS is shown with the new specs but the Sport CD is not coming up in links.

I had a look at my bike and it was made in November 2013 so nearly eight months from manufacture. I would expect the shipping to be about six weeks or so from the factory but it might take a little longer. So if that was the last delivery of this model then they must have been hanging around a long time, and I wonder if they charge the battery as they recommend customers do when the bike's not in use?

So basically this is last years model.

John,

We get deliveries of bikes with batteries, bikes without and batteries on their own - this is because we don't want the scenario where we are selling bikes that are over a year old with batteries of the same age. The last Sport CD delivery was in October/November last year, around a half with batteries and a half without, with a consignment of batteries arriving in March this year. In this way we could rationalise delivery of the main bike (frame, etc) which we could store for several months (making logistics much easier) whilst batteries were much more 'just in time' (to quote popular electronics / IT jargon).
We have no Sport CDs at the moment but a small batch arriving in 2 weeks - again, some with batteries and some without. 'Loose' batteries will arrive in small quantities with each container over the next 2 months to ensure freshness. The whole thing does need meticulous organisation, however.
I think baking bread every morning for Tescos is probably easier.

 

[JohnCade]

Thanks Hattie.

I suppose I'm slightly disappointed that this bike is effectively last years model, and the new ones have upgrades to brakes and higher discharge batteries.

If I had known that I might well have waited the extra month to get the latest kit since the zoom brakes on this are not very good and I'm not getting the power, and nothing like the range from this battery which I expected. In fact I was told just after I bought it that I could have upgraded the battery to a 15ah one for an extra £100, and I would have done that if I'd known about it when I paid.

I've started to keep a check on when the lights are going out and how long it takes to charge and it looks to me as if I'll be lucky to get 15 miles, and that's not using it on 5 all the time. It's not even all that hilly really where I live compared to some places. I wonder if this battery is quite right actually.

 

[Woosh]

John,
The Sport CD as it stands is the current model and will be until the end of the year.
I don't know why you think the battery on the current model can be upgraded for £100. It can't and I don't know why you are quoting this upgrade date as being a month from now.
A new model of Sport (and probably no longer called the Sport) will be out in late 2014 with a 15A battery but will be substantially different to the current model and will also cost substantially more. Sorry, I can't give further information at this stage.

 

[JohnCade]

Well I was told that on the phone just after I bought it. I think it was the Italian guy. I assumed he was referring to the 15ah square bottle one you're listing now as a battery kit. Or is that not fully built? Anyway that's what the man said. trex also wrote further up that you were fitting Tektro brakes on the 2014 bikes and higher discharge batteries.

I notice that the Sport TS has Tektro brakes now in the latest photograph.

 

[Woosh]

Hi John,
I think he was probably talking about the new model of bike - not the current one being upgradeable. This new one was due in to us around September but probably won't be til October at the moment.
You can upgrade the Sport brakes to Tektro if you wish - we have them in stock.
Give me a call if you'd like to.

 

[D8ve]

John,
I am surprised you are not getting the power and range expected.
It's a trade off normally more power from motor means reduced battery life and lower motor assist means greater range.

As an assisted bike if you pedal the extra from the motor turns you into an untiring cyclist. You climb hills like they are hardly there.
Of course racing along the flat above cutout speed you do the work and the battery is preserved.

What is wrong with the bike that makes you so unhappy?
I believe that whoosh are a good balance of price performance without the smooth comfort of a prestige brand ( or price)

 

[JohnCade]

John,
I am surprised you are not getting the power and range expected.
It's a trade off normally more power from motor means reduced battery life and lower motor assist means greater range.

As an assisted bike if you pedal the extra from the motor turns you into an untiring cyclist. You climb hills like they are hardly there.
Of course racing along the flat above cutout speed you do the work and the battery is preserved.

What is wrong with the bike that makes you so unhappy?
I believe that whoosh are a good balance of price performance without the smooth comfort of a prestige brand ( or price)

I'm not unhappy with the bike as such. In fact I like riding it when I can use the power. But having to run it at low power defeats the object completely where I live. Because you then have a heavy bike which is sluggish and hard work, and you might as well have a nonelectric much lighter one.

At level 1 you can hardly feel any assist, and 3/4 is where it starts to show, with a big step up on 5. That is much more powerful than the next level down. So I'm not very happy that the range where I live is nowhere near that which is claimed on the site or the predictor. It's not just Woosh either they all claim off the wall figures. It's all hills here. Not very steep mostly but some are, and you are either going up or down most of the time.

Anyway I'm going to keep an eye on my usage and see if the battery is actually okay because yesterday it lost one light after just 2 miles at the top of a three quarter miles not very steep hill. It came back a few minutes later but went for good at 5.5 miles. So I turned the power down then. At 9 miles two lights were out and that never happened before the bike went back for repair. I only saw one light out after 10 miles before.

I cut my ride short then and when I got back after just 11 miles two lights were off but the second had a flicker of green still and the battery was reading 36.7v. It took 2hr and 36 minutes to go green when it showed 41.9v. So I make it that I used 5.2ah of battery in just 11 miles of fairly easy riding, and half of that with the power down to 3 and just using the throttle on the steepest hills as little as possible. That's about 21 w/hrs per mile I think including half at low power.

Not what I was expecting.

I thought even taking the figures with a pound of salt that I could expect to get 18-20 miles around here using max assist. I'm not powering above the cut off for miles into a headwind. Just taking it easy basically and getting my bike legs back after not riding for a few years but still putting in plenty of leg work on the hills not just turning the pedals over.

I only got the bike a couple of weeks ago and it was back with them for repair for nearly two, taking the delivery both ways into account. So I've only ridden it a handful of times and am only now working out how far I can go on it. But if this really is indicative and the battery is not faulty then I won't be able to use it for what I wanted. That was cruising around and exploring the lanes which I bypass in the car and going down to the coast. That's a 13 mile round trip if I don't detour with one big hill on the way back. I reckon even that would be pushing it if I didn't want to end up pushing this bike up the last hill to my house.

 

[trex]

john, The Woosh website quote 20-30 miles on flat road, hence power consumption = 13WH per mile for a standard rider in ideal conditions. For your reference, Bosch quote about 9WH per mile for their bikes, it's not because their bikes are a lot more efficient, they simply ask the riders to put in more effort.
The power consumption depends very much on total elevation * weight and speed. Most of time, manufacturers assume bike + rider = 100kgs. Using the ebike.ca emulator, flat roads at 15mph constant speed require 175W power at the wheel, on 5% gradient, the graph shows 550W. Translate these numbers into range, 175WH/15 miles=11.6WH per mile, 550WH/15m = 36.6WH per mile. The battery is good for roughly 8 miles on 5% gradient.
For your outing, the battery took 2 hours 36 minutes to get to green, the last 5 minutes are used for balancing, the consumption is 2 1/2 hrs @ 2A = 5AH or roughly 19WH per mile where you live, the practical range is about 15-17 miles on 3% constant gradient. Do keep in mind that hub bikes are less energy efficient than crank bikes on hills.
The important point to note is how fast you can go up a 5% hill. That shows the practical benefit of the bike where you live. Most bikes you can buy (except the 'semi legal' BPMs) can't match its climbing power. I said 'semi legal' because the manufacturers say they are, but to me, bikes with BPM are over the top in terms of appropriate helpful power for e-bikes. Without the BPM motors, hub bikes can't compete on hills.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Trex....at times you do talk a load of unsubstantiated rubbish...on what basis are you able to make the statement 'do keep in mind that hub bikes are less energy efficient than crank drive bikes'....I know of no comparable testing that supports that statement? Do you? It may be that the crank drive system experiences greater energy losses because it has to drive through the gear system of the bike whereas the hub drives directly into the wheel...to be honest I dont know?And I suspect nor do you?
Where do you get your comment that Bosch is not more energy efficient than the Woosh CD,quote'they expect you to put more effort in'...how do you know that the Bosch system is not more energy efficient? I must say that every Bosch motored bike I have ridden is very smooth,I never felt that I was putting more effort in,I am sure the millions that it cost to develop the Bosch system,they must have considered efficiency in their R&D.
I think Jimod 'Scottish hillclimb challenge' although done informally verifies that in order of hillclimbing ability.
1. Kudos Typhoon
2. Kudos Tourer
3. Woosh CD
Your quote'without the BPM motors,hub bikes cannot compete on hills',yet Jim reckons that his old Tourer bike with an 8 fun motor beat the Santana CD up his hill.
What do you mean by 'semi legal',you can't have semi legal..its either legal or illegal? There are not grey areas when it comes to legality?So is it legal or illegal?
Your quote'bikes with BPM are over the top in terms of appropriate helpful power for e-bikes' I have repeatedly asked the question which BPM motored e-bike have you ridden, that allows you to make such a statement,I suspect you have never ridden one,please advise?
So are you saying that crank drive bikes with little power are better because the BPM is too powerful? I am sorry I have never sold any e-bike to any customer who has said that he felt that the power was 'over the top',most of the postings on this forum seek more hillclimbing ability not less...after all you can always turn down the PAS!!!
The BPM motor was specifically developed to move the maximum torque further down in the speed range-in reality all these motors are powering under load at about 600 watts plus,if you look on the King meter on any of these bikes(hub or crank drive) you will see such a battery load in excess of 600 watts.
So the BPM motor exhibits the torque at exactly the situation you need it,up steep hills at low speed-it gives you the opportunity to get into a higher speed when the motor will work at closer to its optimum speed,put another way 'you overcome the hump'. The greatest energy wastage comes when these bikes are working at a speed that wastes energy in the form of heat rather than translating that energy into motion,I suspect that the low speed high torque characteristics of the BPM are very energy efficient because the motor is more often working at a speed delivering peak torque.
Perhaps Jim could advise on the range he is achieving with his 3 bikes,that would be an interesting comparison.?
Kudos Typhoon....BPM motor,derailleur gears
Kudos Tourer....8 fun motor,I can't remember whether its Nexus or derailleur
Woosh CD....TCM crank drive,derailleur gears.
Which one delivers the best range?
KudosDave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You raise some good points there. I have never found any significant difference in efficiency between the different systems other than the basic principle that the harder you pedal, the less battery you use. Even my two-speed Xiongda uses the same amount of battery as Saneagle, when he comes with me on his 30 amp code 10 (315 rpm) BPM. We're the same weight and pedal equally hard. In my experience, all the BPM-motored bikes have sufficient torque to get heavy-weights up steep hills.. I think my opinion of the comparisons is similar to Kudos Dave's.

Trex is a lot lighter than us, so he gets a different impression of the power and torque, which I think is where the discrepancies come from. We heavy-weights know instantly which bikes have decent torque, or the lack of it.

 

[trex]

kudosdave, these are my views. I am sorry you don't like them. Perhaps next year, you and I should race up Park Street, you in your Secret, mine with my BBS01. I am willing to fit a thumb throttle to my bike in order for it to climb all the way up Park Street without pedalling. We can also race up and down Park Street, we'll see which battery runs out first.
Bosch publish their test details for their consumtion figures. I did not dream them up. You'll find the information on page 9 of their brochure
http://www.bosch-ebike.de/media/broschueren/performance/Bosch-eBike-Performance-Line_EN.pdf

 

[Kudoscycles]

Trex....but your statement says that 'Bosch is no more efficient than the Woosh,its just that Bosch expect you to put more effort in'....lets start with that one first.....have you comparison figures of the TCM motor against the Bosch motor?....your calculations are based on Woosh's claim of 20-30 miles range on flat roads,but what would be the comparison if the range were only 10 miles or Bosch included hilly terrain....my point is that all your views are completely meaningless,unless they are backed up by some supportive data.
Its not that I am against anyone having their own view but as an engineer I do expect you to support 'broad brush' claims with some data or at least some valid reasons for such claims.
I dont make any claims for my Kudos Secret bike other than that of my own experiences and would never make comparisons other than those based upon hard facts-weight etc.
As usual you try to deviate away from your own claims and never give a straight answer,your weren't a politician by any chance?
Anyway I repeat.
How do you substantiate the claim that crank drives are more efficient than hub drives?
Which BPM motored bike have you ridden?
Which Bosch motored bike have you ridden
Do you consider BPM motored bikes legal or illegal?
How do you substantiate the claim that the Bosch crank drive system is less efficient than the Woosh crank drive?
The BPM motored e-bike is 'over the top on power'?
You must admit that these are quite sweeping statements,which based on lack of facts may cause customers to buy completely the wrong bike.
I only take this strong stance because in your position as design consultant for Woosh...quote 'they dont always listen to me' people may start believing what you say.
Although after this lot I am sure Hatti would rather distance herself from these postings,but dont worry they say that 'there is no such thing as bad publicity'!!!
Now some straight answers please.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

kudosdave, these are my views. I am sorry you don't like them. Perhaps next year, you and I should race up Park Street, you in your Secret, mine with my BBS01. I am willing to fit a thumb throttle to my bike in order for it to climb all the way up Park Street without pedalling. We can also race up and down Park Street, we'll see which battery runs out first.
Bosch publish their test details for their consumtion figures. I did not dream them up. You'll find the information on page 9 of their brochure
http://www.bosch-ebike.de/media/broschueren/performance/Bosch-eBike-Performance-Line_EN.pdf

Trex....why would we want to race without pedalling? Our bikes are pedal assist ,that is the whole principle of these bikes?

 

[Jimod]

OK looks like I'm back in this thread.

First things first: OP, try the bikes you're thinking of buying if possible and buy the one you like best. Don't listen to some of the info you're getting on here, make your own decision.

Next, I don't know nor do I care which type of system some people think is best. I also don't care what some internet calculator says a bike will do. I don't even care what any of my bikes will do in lower power levels.

Now, what I do care about is, am I satisfied that my bike will do what I want from it? Both my Kudos bikes and the Woosh will do what I want From them. They're just different.

I have a Kudos Tourer, a Kudos Typhoon and my wife has a Woosh Santana Cd. If I could only have 1 bike from those 3 I would choose ( this might surprise you) the Kudos Tourer. The Typhoon is more powerful and the Woosh more sedate but for me the Tourer is the best all rounder. Remember, that's for me.

The fact that the Woosh came in 3rd in the hill climb challenge doesn't make it a bad bike, it's actually a very good bike. Climbing the steeper part of the hill the sitting position of the Santana doesn't lend itself to putting the power down as much as either of the Kudos machines.

Maybe Hatti should send me up a big bear for test. ( I know, I know but you can't blame a man for trying.) I could test it against the Typhoon.

The Woosh big bear and the Woosh Santana CD are different animals so you can't compare them. It just depends on what you want from a bike.

 

[jackhandy]

Hi John,
Unless I've mis-read you, you're concerned about how quickly a couple of your battery leds go out on a ride?

You need to totally ignore the intermediate leds when establishing range:
The only 2 states that are consistent are full & empty.

Set out with a fresh charge & see what range you get before losing power, then you know for sure & can use the intermediate leds as a guesstimate for how much further you can go.

My Ezee 14ah batteries (I have 2) have 2 greens, 2 yellows & a red & the number lit at any time depends hugely on terrain - The red can take me well over 10 miles sometimes & others that have gone out often come bqck on following a stretch of cruising.

You need to establish the battery's range to your own satisfaction.

 

[Jimod]

Perhaps Jim could advise on the range he is achieving with his 3 bikes,that would be an interesting comparison.?
Kudos Typhoon....BPM motor,derailleur gears
Kudos Tourer....8 fun motor,I can't remember whether its Nexus or derailleur
Woosh CD....TCM crank drive,derailleur gears.
Which one delivers the best range?
KudosDave

I'm generally (99%) of the time, in power level 5 on the Tourer. I don't live in a flat area. The hills aren't extremely steep but there are thousands of them. I normally get 30 to 35 miles on the battery.

I switch power levels from 5-4-3-4-5 on the Typhoon. Power level 5 takes the bike up above the cut out speed on anything up to about 6 percent with no effort from me until it cuts out. On steeper hills 5 is the fella. I get about 30 miles.

The Santana has never been run to flat as my wife only ever does a few miles round the Helix park on throttle alone. The park is so flat the bike would probably run for a week.

I've done the 2 bridges run (Forth & Kincardine bridges) on the Tourer. One time I made it on one battery, it's 45 miles. That wasn't always in level 5.

I might (probably, no, definitely) will do the bridges on the Typhoon soon. We'll see how that gets on.

The big difference I notice between the range of the 2 Kudos bikes is, the batteries are different types. The lifep04 on the Tourer goes full power right up until it stops. The Typhoon battery doesn't. You can feel it being a bit lower powered near the end.

Obviously I now need to flatten the Woosh battery to see how far it goes. Any excuse to get out and play really.

 

[Jimod]

Hi John,
Unless I've mis-read you, you're concerned about how quickly a couple of your battery leds go out on a ride?

You need to totally ignore the intermediate leds when establishing range:
The only 2 states that are consistent are full & empty.

Set out with a fresh charge & see what range you get before losing power, then you know for sure & can use the intermediate leds as a guesstimate for how much further you can go.
.

I totally agree with this. I flattened the Typhoon battery one time about 5 miles from home. It still had green LEDs showing on the battery.

Once you do that, you soon learn how far you can go on a charged battery.