wisper 905se

[flecc]

Is there any sensation of 'fighting' the motor if the battery is flat? ie if I were to ride the bike until the battery is flat and need to get home under pedal power only, would I be fighting a lot of drag on the Panasonic motor, do you know?

Less drag than any other electric bike ever made, almost none, and that's the main reason for the Panasonic system's popularity, the bike riding just like an ordinary bike.

That's why they alone have an off switch on the handlebar, which is usable at any time. I always rode my lafree switched off until the first hill, and as the Kalkhoff test showed, I did the same during that.

As A to B magazine said of the Lafree, with the battery out, it is an ordinary bike.

Here's two relevant passages from my review:

"Early in the day I'd ridden the Kent Gate Way cyclepath again, with still air through being well protected from the wind that was experienced high on the Downs later, some of this a minutely negative incline of between 0.9 and 1.2%, and found the bike rolling so freely that I stopped pedalling, the bike then rolling along at 17 mph for well over half a mile before the incline was lost. That's the best free rolling I've ever known over the years round here."

"With those more average route conditions, I never used high power mode and took advantage of the bike's low roll resistance by riding without power when it was easy. The longest such section without power was 3.6 miles in urban conditions, often slowing right down for junctions and roundabouts, and peaking at over 18 mph at times, the average over that stretch being 12.1 mph. In a rural area without so many intersections that would easily have been at least 13.5 mph average unpowered. For one brief period over half a mile I tried Eco mode, but otherwise the whole ride was on standard mode or switched off."

 

[frank9755]

"Early in the day I'd ridden the Kent Gate Way cyclepath again, with still air through being well protected from the wind that was experienced high on the Downs later, some of this a minutely negative incline of between 0.9 and 1.2%, and found the bike rolling so freely that I stopped pedalling, the bike then rolling along at 17 mph for well over half a mile before the incline was lost. That's the best free rolling I've ever known over the years round here."

Poetry!

Reading this it is not easy for me to resist buying one of these bikes...

 

[jimmyengland1000]

That sounds good. Is the motor on the Pro-Connect going to be the same as the Agattu that you tested, then?

 

[flecc]

Yes, it's the same. The system has remained basically the same over the years since it was so good to start with.

These new units have had the casings redesigned to save weight, more simple cowlings to aid ease of access, and on some, the high power option. There were changes in the circuitry to increase the electronics reliability.

As for drag, the only motor unit parts that turn are the sprocket on the chain with it's shaft and the first two gears. Since the bearings are precision ballraces, not the usual bike stuff, and those two gears are very high quality helicals, they have virtually no effect on free running.
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[Jonathan]

New 950SE about £891.39 - a good deal?

On ebay from Germany, with delivery cost £70.63. Is that a good deal - £ 300 less?

 

[flecc]

There's already been a thread about these Jonathan. They are German specification without throttle but that's supplied with them together with fitting details. At least one member did buy one, so maybe they can link you to that thread or details.

It is a genuine deal from Wisper of Germany, so ok if you're happy with doing some alterations.
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[frank9755]

In fact it is this thread! See the first page.

I bought one of these and am pretty happy with it. Transaction went smoothly and the sellers answered my questions ok. The bike when set up has throttle and can be de-restricted.

One piece of advice - I paid the buy-it-now price but others put in lower offers which were accepted...

Frank

 

[flecc]

In fact it is this thread! See the first page.

Frank

No wonder I couldn't find it, hiding it like that.
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[jimmyengland1000]

I e-mailed Dominic, the German seller, when I saw them for sale on eBay. Unfortunately, he doesn't accept credit cards (which would give purchase protection) and his Paypal guarantee limit is only £150. I didn't feel confident about wiring or Paypaling that amount of cash. I'd say he's a genuine seller though. One eBay user in the UK (going by the name of Aldby on this forum, I believe??) bought five of them at about 1000 Euros and then listed them for sale on eBay at a mark-up of around 20%. I e-mailed David Miall of Wisper UK and, although he wanted to sell me a UK Wisper at £1200, he then said that he would not get involved in any warranty work whatsoever on any Wisper bike that came from the German seller. Dominic then said that Wisper UK are legally obliged to carry out warranty work as required, even if the machine came from Germany (given that they are all produced in China by Wisper UK, I'd say that Dominic is correct here). So, given what happened to my 905e over only 6 months with bits dropping off it etc, I didn't want to buy one from Germany and then find zero support from the manufacturer here in the UK. I mean, should it really matter where the bike came from if it's a new Wisper under warranty??

In the end, I couldn't be bothered with all the apparent skulduggery, implications of being left stuck in the event of warranty work etc over the German Wispers (which according to Wisper UK shouldn't ever be available here.........er why?). I ordered a diamond frame Kalkhoff Agattu today instead.

 

[flecc]

(which according to Wisper UK shouldn't ever be available here.........er why?).

It's because they are German specification , made expressly for their market, hence the lack of throttle for example. There are other differences too. The manufacturer can legitimately direct where sales are made anyway. An example is the German Raleigh bike like the Kalkhoff, which can't be sold here because parent company Raleigh UK have their own different e-bike plans.
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[jimmyengland1000]

Understood re distribution. What about the warranty aspect of things though? If a German Wisper bike needs warranty work, is it reasonable for Wisper UK to insist that it would need to be returned to Germany, even though it's the same manufacturer? It certainly put me off buying one of the German 905se's and, to be honest, it influenced me re buying a British 905se too because I thought the refusal to do warranty work was related to the price discrepancy...

 

[flecc]

It depends how the manufacturer does his marketing to his national companies. If the deal is that they are liable for warranty matters, it can be reasonable for the other national companies to refuse cross import claims. I've known other cases of this in other business areas.
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[frank9755]

I understand (in part from comments earlier in this thread) that EU single market law means that Wisper would, in fact, have to honour warranties regardless of whether the bike was purchased in the UK or Germany. I suspect David isn't aware of the law and needs to be informed of it. But I agree, the making of these statements does not inspire confidence on the part of the consumer.

The Raleigh situation is different in that Raleigh UK could sell the German bike here, but presumably have chosen not to for the time being, having made some kind of agreement with Powabyke. For what it's worth I did read a quote somewhere from someone in Raleigh UK saying that they saw the Powabyke deal as a good way for them to get to understand the market while formulating longer term plans. You could say that this could be applied to any joint venture, and you would be right!

Frank

 

[flecc]

I understand (in part from comments earlier in this thread) that EU single market law means that Wisper would, in fact, have to honour warranties regardless of whether the bike was purchased in the UK or Germany. I suspect David isn't aware of the law and needs to be informed of it.
Frank

I'm not so confident that this necessarily applies. If Wisper gmbh is a wholly different company able to use the Wisper name by default or permission, it wouldn't apply for example, since they would have the status of importer/retailer buying from the Chinese manufacturer. The argument that return to the manufacturer applies might not be valid, since the manufacturer is Wisper in China which may have been set up as a different company from the UK marketing company.

Even if that wasn't the case, it's possible repair could be refused in the UK on the basis that the bikes are to a different and German specification which the UK company isn't equipped to deal with. In this connection the safety card could be played, that the brake setup is different and an inadvertent incorrect repair would leave liability for a subsequent accident with the UK company. I couldn't see a court overruling that lightly.

In other words, it's a can of worms, and as ever, I tend to stick with what happens in practice, and Wisper is not unusual in what they say as I indicated before. While I don't suspect Wisper of any intent of poor service, legally pursuing matters like this with any company can lead to the product being out of commission for many months and even well over a year due to divers delays, and with no guarantee of winning in the end.

Unless the other European outlet is just a branch of the UK company, rather than a separate company, I see buying elsewhere as having a risk if the status isn't clarified first.
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[frank9755]

I think it is pretty clear cut. The directive was introduced just to deal with situations of this type. Wisper couldn't argue it was a materially different spec from the products sold in the UK because, as David explained in this forum, the product they sent to the UK was half of their first container load from Germany! Moreover, the UK bikes are 250W - ie European, not UK standard.

I've emailed the Wisper guys to point it out to them. I can't imagine they'd want to damage their brand from being seen to be unreasonable.

The legal process could actually be very straightforward. If the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty, the customer could have the bike repaired and file a claim with the small claims court for the amount (plus costs). The company could fight it or pay. Given the law being so clear cut, I feel any solicitor would advise them to do the latter.

Frank

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Yes, but I think the point is really that the German bikes are Wisper bikes, made in a factory in China which was bought by Wisper from the UK. They know that and we know that. Dominic in Germany is offloading them at less than the UK price (even then, I think they're expensive for what they are) and Wisper UK doesn't like it because they're trying to sell them at £1200 here in the UK. So they put stumbling blocks in the way, say they won't do warranty work and generally try to force people to pay out £300 more for what is 99.9% the same thing. Any reference to corporate structures and whether Wisper UK is really the same or not as Wisper anywhere else strikes me as evasive. It struck me as unhelpful, motivated from sour grapes and, to be honest, a not too encouraging indication of what they might like when it comes to getting a new battery, or warranty work, or spares.

So I bought a bike from another manufacturer entirely and paid £1195 approx for a bike which I strongly suspect will be superior to the Wisper anyway, whilst costing less than the UK Wisper price. So, in my own particular case, Wisper UK's unhelpful attitude to their own product, emanating from another EU country in the same legal trade bloc which they themselves sent there, simply made me buy someone else's product. Wisper Germany haven't sold me a Wisper and neither have Wisper UK. So, neither of them sell a new bike and neither benefit in the future from sales of spares, batteries or whatever and they lose a customer, probably forever. And that's someone who already bought one of their bikes.

 

[flecc]

The legal process could actually be very straightforward.
Frank

Now there's an optimist!
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[jimmyengland1000]

I reckon any process which involves the legal system should be avoided at all costs. One can win a case, be awarded damages and receive absolutely nothing. No, I wouldn't be consulting a solicitor in the case of an electric bike not being fixed, annoying as it would be. I would (and have) avoided the whole scenario by not getting onvolved with them again.

 

[frank9755]

I agree that legal cases are always far better avoided.

However it's a popular misconception that it is hard for a consumer in the UK to take legal action against a company. It's actually easy and quick. There's a special court track just for this (the Small Claims Court). You don't need a solicitor, you just fill in a short form, and need to make a small payment (which will be paid by the other party if you win) to show you are serious.

A reputable company which receives a claim against them would probably consult a solicitor, and take their advice. As you say, Jimmy, a disreputable one could decline to pay and do a disappearing act.

Frank

 

[flecc]

I'm mindful of the small claims court Frank, the last such warranty case I'm aware of not reaching potential resolution until a year after the original issue arose with the retailer.

The customer had a partial win, but the company, one of Britain's largest retailers, ignored the ruling, in effect challenging the customer to restart the process. He gave up.

Sorry Frank, but that's the sort of real world situation I'm familiar with and post about, and it's not uncommon.

In this case, the customer had adopted a somewhat aggressive posture at the outset, and seized every opportunity to abuse the company publicly, also a very common event, and doubtless that motivated the company's uncompromising stance and willingness to challenge the outcome.
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