Why were Full Throttles banned in 2016?

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Plain and simple

Police state ILLEGAL to have and use a throttle on a bike.

Having one means it is a motorbike, and 6 points on your licence and a fine

Lets cut the complicated chatter
Will you please stop misleading people. You very obviously do not know the law on this subject and all the provisions that have been made.

I do know that law so thoroughly that I've use it to correct a major police force and later overrule the DfT when they wrongly advised that force that they could prosecute.

Showing that even the legal experts of the Department for Transport who draft the law don't know it all, simply because with the complexities of our national and international law, there are other laws which can and do overrule their transport laws.

Please click this link and read the long opening post of the thread. In particular read the section about a quarter way down headed:

Getting legal permission to have a fully acting "Twist and Go" throttle on a pedelec:
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Jimod

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 9, 2010
1,065
634
Polmont
I explained already in post #11.
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I therefore stopped installing twist and go throttle since the 1/1/2016 law.
The throttle on my bikes are not twist and go. From standstill, you cannot start on throttle. You have to pedal first before the throttle is activated. The law does not say how much or how hard pedalling you have to do, just that the motor should stop when you stop pedalling.
If I've got the throttle pressed on my Gran Camino, the motor does not cut out when I stop pedalling. So is it legal? Or have I misunderstood your post?
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,451
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
If I've got the throttle pressed on my Gran Camino, the motor does not cut out when I stop pedalling.
it's difficult to judge right how much run off between pedal sensor pulses. If you blip the brakes, you'll cut momentarily power to the motor. The throttle will then need re-activating with pedalling.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
If I've got the throttle pressed on my Gran Camino, the motor does not cut out when I stop pedalling. So is it legal?
No it isn't legal, the exemption that permits a pedelec is very clear, the assist power must cease when pedalling stops.

However, when looking at the detail of the law it can be important to cut some slack in respect of the DfT who make the law, the police and those who sell the pedelecs. They are trying very hard within the confines of politics and the law we are stuck with to satisfy what pedelecers need.

Politically to maintain our all important trade with the EU we have to comply with EU transport law, which as a result is still fully in force here, despite our leaving the union.

So we have an impasse, the EU's no fully acting throttle law in conflict with our traditionally always having fully acting throttles. The DfT have done their utmost to resolve the problem and clearly are not at all sympathetic to that EU provision, so have provided the following work arounds:

1) Grandfather rights, meaning all pedelecs manufactured prior to 1st January 2016 when the EU law was implemented can have fully acting throttles indefinitely, on the basis that retrospective law is unfair and in some respects unlawful. And they have required the police forces of Great Britain to comply with that ruling.

2) To deal with the problem of more recent pedelecs, they have introduced a somewhat convoluted provision using a part of EU law, that which says a pedelec with a throttle becomes an LIe-A moped which needs to be type approved at manufacture.

So they have stretched that in three ways to mean that, post manufacture, a fully acting throttle can be added, providing that the machine is individually taken through Single Vehicle Approval. If that is done they are prepared to accept that it remains a bureacracy free pedelec classed as a 250LPM within the L1e-A law as a Britain only class given permanent ministerial approval to be still a bicycle in law. Once again they have required the police forces of Great Britain to comply with that ruling, despite the legal conflict.

As is very clear, the police are complying with both the above measures, taking absolutely no notice of fully acting throttles, providing all the other pedelec rules are complied with, as the DfT has ruled.

In turn the trade have taken note and apply the law with similar flexibility. So we should be tolerant about their interpretations which, after all, are only provided to satisfy what we ask for and feel we need.

Woosh regards needing to pedal to activate the throttle allows it to remain active during the journey since it is a thumb throttle not necessarily continuous at all times. As I said at the outset, that does not comply with the letter of the law, but it obviously does comply with the spirit of the DfT's provisions to resolve the impasse mentioned.

So it's in our own interests to cut them some slack, as the DfT have generously done for us.
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StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,798
1,014
One clarification I would like to know.

My two eBikes, an eMTB and the eBrompton, have the KT controllers setup so that they respond to throttle but when you stop pedaling the motor cuts out, that happens automagically.

However, is it a legal requirement that this happens automatically ?

In other words, lets say you have a throttle, and your using it, and also doing the required 'ghost pedalling'. So every time you stop pedalling, you manually release the throttle.

Is that legal ?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
One clarification I would like to know.
However, is it a legal requirement that this happens automatically ?
Yes, because it is a pedelec construction provision of the exemption in Type Approval law, that only dealing with design and construction, not rider usage.

In other words, lets say you have a throttle, and your using it, and also doing the required 'ghost pedalling'. So every time you stop pedalling, you manually release the throttle.

Is that legal ?
No, since it is not a usage provision for the exemption.
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StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,798
1,014
OK, thats clear, TVM.

So the follow on question would be, that if its possible to re-configure the controller when your out and about on the eBike, to alter the throttle behaviour, is that legal ?

To cancel the requirement for pedalling to be required when using the throttle does not take long with the KT controllers, if you stop and go through the setup.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
OK, thats clear, TVM.

So the follow on question would be, that if its possible to re-configure the controller when your out and about on the eBike, to alter the throttle behaviour, is that legal ?

To cancel the requirement for pedalling to be required when using the throttle does not take long with the KT controllers, if you stop and go through the setup.
Not legal, since to be a pedelec exempt from motor vehicle law, there cannot be any assist power when pedalling stops. In this instance it is the usage law of the current EAPC regulation, which rules that it becomes a motor vehicle, namely an L1e-A moped.

BUT:

Take it througn the new 250 LPM MSVA test and it can be legally used as a pedelec.

Or just use it anyway, knowing the police are not interested in how a throttle works or whether one is fitted.
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Jimod

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 9, 2010
1,065
634
Polmont
it's difficult to judge right how much run off between pedal sensor pulses. If you blip the brakes, you'll cut momentarily power to the motor. The throttle will then need re-activating with pedalling.
I think you misunderstood my question. What I'm saying is, If I'm using the throttle as well as pedalling I can stop pedalling and keep the the throttle pressed, which keeps the motor going for as long as I've got the throttle pressed. Is that legal? The reason I'm asking is your post seemed to say the motor should cut out when the pedals are stopped even with the throttle pressed.
 

flash

Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2009
194
83
69
CW12 Congleton
Not legal, since to be a pedelec exempt from motor vehicle law, there cannot be any assist power when pedalling stops. In this instance it is the usage law of the current EAPC regulation, which rules that it becomes a motor vehicle, namely an L1e-A moped.

BUT:

Take it througn the new 250 LPM MSVA test and it can be legally used as a pedelec.

Or just use it anyway, knowing the police are not interested in how a throttle works or whether one is fitted.
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Flecc you have the patience of a saint. I have been a member of this forum for 17 years and the amount of times I have read your explainations on this subject is numerous. Well done, long may you rock.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,531
3,277
Saw this eariler tonight - throttle only 350W electric motorbike with no pedals, about to board a train. This model is 2 or 3 years old. Some sort of gaffa tape repair. Sometimes I don't know why I bother trying to be legal.


54288
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
6,536
i got hate mail from council today :rolleyes:

20230929_012232[1].jpg

20230928_175200[1].jpg

oh well silly cow will get the same letter as me and guy over the grass that bought his house never done any planing for his drive and a van he parks on it wtf they on pmsl o_O

pot calls Ketel black sent my complaint to the chief housing officer got to go to public gather about there **** poor repairs on 5th free food no cider tho :p
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,531
3,277
i got hate mail from council today :rolleyes:
They really hate you! You'll lose whatever battle you're planning about panning. Free lighter's a nice touch, softens the blow.
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
6,536
hi

no 1 we don't park on the grass and leave it there we only load or unload the car for shopping or doing a car boot and is then parked back on the road, plus we do not destroy the grass or rip out hole hedges with out asking you first.

2 regarding the drive way and the permission you are askin us to do can you please give me a copy of what cris has submitted to the council because as far as i know he did none of it, you cant have one rule for one and not the other just because he owns his own home and as wee only have 1 car we can get blocked in as why we never leave the car there in the first place.

3 house under occupied as 2 women live in a 3 bed room house mother and daughter 1 how does 2 ppl get a 3 bed council house? 2 most of the time the mother is not there or living somewhere else so id go take a look at that as the garden is a bomb site and the hedge is 15 feet high, they have not cut it down in size since they moved in.

4 fkn solar panels lcx has now been out twice there idea of serving the inverter is to go up in to the attic and reset it as it is password locked and nothing can be changed.

when the panels are generating load from say 11.30-2.30pm even with 2kw being generated it does not export, so no export fee for you im afraid and i can get no where with it as lcx tested it all and working fine? with what a step ladder.

ill send you some pics of the monitor i have because i can see it all in real time i have spoken to 3 3rd party company's and said it is not right but want £390 quid inc vat to take a look at it as lck is a waste of space they have nothing to test anything with export wise and it is clear as day something is not right as it makes a loud coil wine noise when under load as id be buzzing as well with 2kw up my ass i just dont want my house to burn to the floor as most ppl up here have never even had there's looked at since they was installed.

i was also told the service life of these things is 10 years esp for the cheap rubbish ones like in my roof!

5 id like to make a formal compliant about the house in the corner and parking on the grass and tearing it all up not even we do that and all 4 of us do it anyway simple option to fix it is open the road as no point in a drive if we are blocked in so a waste of money ;)

regards
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,531
3,277
no 1 we don't park on the grass and leave it there we only load or unload the car for shopping or doing a car boot and is then parked back on the road, plus we do not destroy the grass or rip out hole hedges with out asking you first.
They'll read the rest as "Blah blah blah" and note you've admitted to parking on the grass.

BTW Bought a Korg Nanokey2. Takes up very little space, sounds and operates great, saves getting the big keyboards out. Only trouble is, it must be listed within the firtst 10 MIDI devices in Windows, else it won't work. Easily remedied...
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
6,536
we all park on the grass fkn ppl off there head idk ppl next door are like 80 :rolleyes:
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,531
3,277
we all park on the grass fkn ppl off there head idk ppl next door are like 80 :rolleyes:
Good eyesight though.

Practice rolling out? They can't get you for parking, if your car doesn't stop moving?
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
6,536
Practice rolling out? They can't get you for parking, if your car doesn't stop moving?
[/QUOTE]
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
6,536

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
6,536
hi also can you please explain why the council is registered at dun and Bradstreet as a corporation same as the uk government.?




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nope

;)