What is the best legal crank drive bike available?

[Kudoscycles]

Coming back from Eurobike I was amazed at how many Bosch powered crank drive bikes are available,they all seem to cost euro 2200 to euro 3000. There are so many from AVE,Scott,KTM,Kalkhoff,BH Emotion,Winaro,Hercules,Haibike etc,I am sure Eddie has the full list.
I am interested in members opinions as to who makes the best legal crank dive?
Also intrigued as to why the Tonaro Bighit goes up hills so well,it is after all 7 kg heavier than most of the Bosch crank drives?
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[mike killay]

I guess:-
1 It's Mexican stand-off. No manufacturer is willing to blink and not offer a Bosch version.
2 Bosch came into a market and had to shoulder Panasonic aside. Who knows what commercial inducements were offered?
3 As to the Bighit, could be anything, different wind in the motor, different characteristics of the controller, different gear ratios.

 

[amigafan2003]

Also intrigued as to why the Tonaro Bighit goes up hills so well,it is after all 7 kg heavier than most of the Bosch crank drives?

Backhander to the EN certification dept and it's really pulling 1kw?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The TONARO Bighit doesn't go up hills any steeper or faster than a Bosch, but it has a throttle so that you can go up without pedalling or pedalling lightly. All these torque sensor bikes a great if you can pedal hard, but not so good if you can't.

 

[Jimod]

All these torque sensor bikes a great if you can pedal hard, but not so good if you can't.

Which is why I don't think I'd buy a bike with a torque sensor. I love being able to pedal slowly at 15mph after a long climb. I don't do it very often but it's great to be able to when I fancy it.

 

[scarrabri]

Coming back from Eurobike I was amazed at how many Bosch powered crank drive bikes are available,they all seem to cost euro 2200 to euro 3000. There are so many from AVE,Scott,KTM,Kalkhoff,BH Emotion,Winaro,Hercules,Haibike etc,I am sure Eddie has the full list.
I am interested in members opinions as to who makes the best legal crank dive?
Also intrigued as to why the Tonaro Bighit goes up hills so well,it is after all 7 kg heavier than most of the Bosch crank drives?
Dave
Kudoscycles

Hi as i am a owner of the Tonaro Bighit for over two years now i have never really strugled too much on the hills ,as long as i put her in the correct gear and apply a little effort she is quick to respond and pulls very well,best wishes Brian.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am confused,on a seperate thread there was a lady who required an e-bike for her husband to ride up steep hills without him using any leg power,ie on throttle only. I stated that I had never ridden any legal e-bike that could ride up a steep hill without the rider pedalling. Many members stated that the Tonaro will go up steep hills without rider input and the lady,on the strength of that statement,has ordered without a test ride a Tonaro,her husband has no power in his legs so he cannot climb hills unless the bike will climb without any rider input-is this lady going to be dissapointed with her purchase?
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Kudoscycles]

A very interesting thread. So I read into this that the best hillclimbing bike that we are legally allowed to ride in the UK is a 250 watt crank drive motor with a throttle and speed sensor,not torque sensor.
Is the Tonaro especially low geared?
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It has a throttle, so you don't have to pedal. The motor turns the crank, so you still have to use the gears. I think the lady and her husband willl be very pleased with it.

 

[scarrabri]

I am confused,on a seperate thread there was a lady who required an e-bike for her husband to ride up steep hills without him using any leg power,ie on throttle only. I stated that I had never ridden any legal e-bike that could ride up a steep hill without the rider pedalling. Many members stated that the Tonaro will go up steep hills without rider input and the lady,on the strength of that statement,has ordered without a test ride a Tonaro,her husband has no power in his legs so he cannot climb hills unless the bike will climb without any rider input-is this lady going to be dissapointed with her purchase?
Dave
Kudoscycles

I dont think anyone could be dissapointed with there Tonaro ,i know i wasnt .

 

[Kudoscycles]

The Tonaro Bighit has a massive 128 N/m of torque,according to Powerpedals website. Even the latest Bosch 350 watt S class bikes have 50 N/m,the 250 watt has only 40 N/m. Just intrigued what the chinese Guangzhou engineers have achieved that the might of the Bosch R&D department cannot? Achieving a torque figure 3 times what the rest of us are achieving out of 250 watts seems incredible?
I rode a 700 watt illegal bike at Eurobike,it had a throttle but it would not climb the slope at Eurobike without some pedalling in the lowest gear....it made it some way up but the motor started to fail and I had to help it to get to the top,the slope is not especially steep.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[the_killjoy]

Isn't the problem (?) that there s no definition of what a 250W motor is, If you fit a more powerful motor on the bike and label it 250w ~ you've got the best bike.

 

[flecc]

The Tonaro Bighit has a massive 128 N/m of torque,according to Powerpedals website. Even the latest Bosch 350 watt S class bikes have 50 N/m,the 250 watt has only 40 N/m. Just intrigued what the chinese Guangzhou engineers have achieved that the might of the Bosch R&D department cannot? Achieving a torque figure 3 times what the rest of us are achieving out of 250 watts seems incredible?
I rode a 700 watt illegal bike at Eurobike,it had a throttle but it would not climb the slope at Eurobike without some pedalling in the lowest gear....it made it some way up but the motor started to fail and I had to help it to get to the top,the slope is not especially steep.
Dave
Kudoscycles

That was a hub motor bike no doubt though Dave, so the motor would have been operating outside it's optimum speed band when climbing. The secret of crank drives is the ability to keep the motor running at or close to it's optimum. As for the torque claims, it depends on where it's measured, at the motor output or after the gearing down. The Tonaro claim will no doubt be at the lowest gear output, the gear reduction acting as a multiplier. Bosch could do the same, but they've stuck to the motor unit convention and not the marketing department method.

The Tonaro certainly isn't high powered, but using the lowest gears it will climb well on throttle alone. There will of course be a limit to this, a gradient so steep that either it will not have a low enough gear or the speed of climb will be below the rider's point of balancing on two wheels. The latter will vary of course, I can maintain balance on two wheels almost at a standstill, but many can't.
.

 

[mike killay]

The Tonaro uses a 42 t chain ring driving an 11 to 32 set of cogs on a 26 inch wheel.
Because it is sensible and does not use a torque sensor, the full 250watts is always available, either through the throttle or the simple pedelec which only has 3 positions, low, medium and high.
The pedelec will deliver full 250w if set on high and the pedals are turning, even 'under pedalling' i.e. pedalling very slowly indeed, just sufficient to convince the controller that the pedals are turning, even if you are not trying to match the road speed.
I am an unabashed Tonaro enthusiast, I really cannot see why anyone would want to buy a bike like the Bosch or Panasonic, which are far too complicated for no good reason and also too expensive.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The Tonaro Bighit has a massive 128 N/m of torque,according to Powerpedals website. Even the latest Bosch 350 watt S class bikes have 50 N/m,the 250 watt has only 40 N/m. Just intrigued what the chinese Guangzhou engineers have achieved that the might of the Bosch R&D department cannot? Achieving a torque figure 3 times what the rest of us are achieving out of 250 watts seems incredible?
I rode a 700 watt illegal bike at Eurobike,it had a throttle but it would not climb the slope at Eurobike without some pedalling in the lowest gear....it made it some way up but the motor started to fail and I had to help it to get to the top,the slope is not especially steep.
Dave
Kudoscycles

Torque is a funny thing to measure because it's different at different places around the bike and it changes when you change gear. Bosch only make the motor, so their measurement is probably taken at the crank, while as the Tonaro's will probably be at the back wheel. 128NM sounds much too high to me anyway. The tonaro's motor is not as powerful as the Bosch one, so it does not climb as well as any Bosch-motored bike. The only advantage that the Tonaro has is that it can climb without human effort.

Power = torque x rpm, so all you need to do to get very high torque is to gear the power down to very low speed. It''s the same as a lever. You can get a lot of force when you move the pivot close to the load, but you get a big reduction in the distance the load moves.

 

[flecc]

I really cannot see why anyone would want to buy a bike like the Bosch or Panasonic, which are far too complicated for no good reason and also too expensive.

Many disagree though, preferring a good torque sensor to hanging onto a throttle for control, so it's a more a personal matter. It should be remembered that the motor unit the Tonaro uses existed in a former life as the almost identical Yamaha e-bike unit, and there were several others of this type from such as Giant, Oxygen and Aprilia. All were dropped in the face of the Panasonic unit introduction which had captured the market at the time, in the way the Bosch unit has now.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hence why I asked if the Tonaro is especially undergeared?
Why am I interested? We have a new crank drive bike under test in the hills of Eastern Europe,this bike is the lightest crank drive bike I have ever ridden,it has a motor wound to give maximum torque at low speed and controller programmed to suit,it has gearing designed for hill climbing,it has a throttle programmed to give maximum power at any speed,it has a legal 250 watt motor,it pulls away from Bosch crank drive bikes easily but I still cannot claim it will climb steep hills (mountain climbs) without some pedalling.Named 'Eiger' which says it all!
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[indalo]

We have a new crank drive bike under test in the hills of Eastern Europe,this bike is the lightest crank drive bike I have ever ridden,it has a motor wound to give maximum torque at low speed and controller programmed to suit,it has gearing designed for hill climbing,it has a throttle programmed to give maximum power at any speed,it has a legal 250 watt motor,it pulls away from Bosch crank drive bikes easily but I still cannot claim it will climb steep hills (mountain climbs) without some pedalling.Named 'Eiger' which says it all!
Dave
Kudoscycles

Now that sounds very interesting indeed David! I shall follow progress as and when you are able to tantalise us further.

Having ridden the top of the range Bosch-powered Haibike up and down a few medium hills, I found it very capable but not so far removed from the Dutch Koga and Sparta models or, for that matter, the Kalkhoff Agattu as to make me want to splash out the near 3K asking price over those other very accomplished ebikes, decent hill-climbers that they are too. Don't misunderstand me; I think the Haibike is a brilliantly executed piece of work and fulfils its purpose with great aplomb. My purpose though confines me to areas where a Haibike full-susser is really superfluous so I can save the thick end of a grand and ride the delightful road-prioritised machines on offer from Germany and Holland.

If your testing programme proves successful and you reckon the new bike could be a feasible proposition within your range, can you give us some idea of timescale before they become available?
Just a ballpark figure perhaps?

Regards,
Indalo

 

[Jimod]

We have a new crank drive bike under test in the hills of Eastern Europe,Dave
Kudoscycles

Send it up here, I'll test it in the hills of Central Scotland.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Indalo...I think the Haibike is the best truly off road bike that I have tested,I tried to buy the bike from the Accell group at Eurobike but they advised it will soon be available through the Raleigh bike shops.
The Haibike has the Bosch motor inverted to give greater ground clearance and is certainly very tough.
My new bike is more in the style of a trecking bike,ie primarily on road but with bridleway usage,as soon as the testing is completed and spec finalised I will post full details,price is likely to be about £1295.00 incl vat. Assuming all ok with our testing,delivery will be February/March 2013 at latest,maybe earlier.
I viewed the first of the production bikes at Eurobike show,I know I am biased but it was hard to tell the difference both visually and specification between this bike and the german bikes costing double that price,its an attractive full frame bike.
Will release details as soon as possible.
Dave
Kudoscycles