Well, I have just gone and done it - Kalkhoff BS10 ordered today

[SRS]

sorry missed this before. I just fell off my actual chair.

really, this is your actually defence? I'm frankly shocked.

By your logic, you'll be fine with me going into my local kitchen shop, buying a large knife and stabbing someone in the head with it.

If the goverment are happy to take the tax, by your logic I'm entitled to use it how I want.

I'm still shocked that you'd actually type that as justification for using something illegally.

Can you now see how far off you are with this opinion?

Col

Col, firstly, get yourself a more supportive chair.

I have made no suggestion that any S Pedelec / illegal pedelec be used for any purpose other than cycling.

Your knife comment makes no sense to me at all.

Defence, I need no personal defence as I am in receipt of a recently purchased legal bike.

I merely suggest that if it is legal to buy the bike in the first place, then it would be reasonable to expect it to be legal to use it for its manufactured purpose.

That aside, we all now know of 50 Cycles. A deliberate marketing strategy, who knows but its working extremely well.

Most people I know, do not even know KTM sell cycles.

 

[Kudoscycles]

SRS...quoting your posting'I merely suggest that if it is legal to buy the bike in the first place,then it would be reasonable to be legal to use it for it's manufactured purpose' I cannot have any argument with that statement,we as retailers have a duty of care,both legally and morally,to sell you a product that is legal for you to use for it's manufactured purpose,that is as a bicycle....I think this thread has proven that it is not possible to use these S class bikes as bicycles nor is it possible to register them as mopeds,so the S class retailer has sold a product which cannot be used for it's manufactured purpose.
If I sold you a washing machine and then told you that you cannot use it to wash clothes,as a right thinking person I suspect you would soon return the washer to the retailer.
What makes all this hair-splitting a load of garbage is that the retailer uses reviews on his website which clearly describe these S class bikes as being used as daily commutes,so as a purchaser you would be left with the impression that using these bikes as a daily commute in the UK is wholly legal,which clearly is not the case.
To my knowledge the whole rest of the quality end of the e-bike industry is abiding by the 15,5 mph x 250 watt standard,whether with or without EN15194 but this one rogue retailer is taking advantage of the conformity of the rest of us to sell bikes which he is marketing as 28 mph machines,all the rest could easily bring over S class bikes to directly compete but we all realise to do so may have an adverse effect on the freedom we enjoy with these bikes.
Companies such as KTM and Haibike could bring over S class bikes but these larger suppliers obviously have a respected public profile,selling illegal bikes would be against their company ethics,I am surprised that Kalkhoff,such a prestigious brand in Germany are happy about their S class bikes being sold in the UK.
Dave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Suppose the customer says he wants to take the bike abroad in his motorhome, where 350w is allowed. Would you be happy about him selling it then?

 

[Kudoscycles]

D8veh....of course,if the bikes were exported to a country that can legally use these bikes there would be no problem ,but all of this thread,the reviews on the website and the proprietors of the retailer all admit
that their usage is within the UK. If their website said ' these bikes cannot be used in the UK and are for export (to countries that allow S class bikes) only,then this thread would be a non starter,but that is patently not the case.
I think we are in agreement.
Dave

 

[Geebee]

Can anyone produce any record of anybody who's been prosecuted for having an electric bicycle (with pedals) that has too much power or speed? I keep searching, but I never find anything. No anecdotes please, only actual cases - date and court.

Not a court case file http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/Illegal-use-of-battery-assisted-electric-bikes-READ-/10000000011075255/g.html


"PLEASE BE VERY CAREFULL BEFORE BUYING OR USING AN ILLEGAL BATTERY/ ELECTRIC BIKE,SCOOTER, OR CONVERSION KIT ON UK ROADS!!

I am writing this guide purely to stop someone else going through what I have just had!

I purchased an 500 Watt electric kit for a mountain bike, to convert it to a electric assited bike at a cost of nearly £500 with the batteries.

No problems fitting it or getting it to work correctly! The problems started the first time I took it on the road for a test!

I was doing approx 18-20mph & was 500 Yards down the road, I was aware of a police car behind me.

Thinking they must want to get past I pulled over to let them go.

OH DEAR!

It was apparently ME they wanted to talk to!

The officer asked me a few questions about the bike and my name & address.

He then explained that an electric bike MUST be:

a. With a power NOT greater than 200Watts.

b. NOT exceed 15mph

c. Weigh less than 40kg

As mine was above all three, I was liable to a fine for having an un licensed vehicle on the road + Points on my driving licence for driving without insurance, which may result in a BAN!!??

As it would need to be registered, with a number plate, made fully road legal, reg as an electric moped, I would also need to tax it, have Insurance, wear a crash helmet, pass a CBT test. ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC!

I was told that this would also apply to ANY Electric bike, scooter or conversion kit!

Apparently this is something that the police have been monitoring for a while & they ARE now ACTIVELY pursuing users!

As a last point please remember that if you are then caught or stopped or reported the police DO legally have the write to IMPOUND your bike or scooter until you present relevent paperwork & documents of insurance that you like me, WON'T have!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE BE AWARE!

The police can check the motor power & speed at the roadside. Also removing power labels etc may result in a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice!!??

Also, if like my mate, who was going to purchase on for his 16 year old son, to get to school on, if his son was caught he could end up with a ban BEFORE he's even got a provisional licence."

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Yeah, and I stopped by the police on my 5kw electric bike with no pedals and a sign on the back that said 'koff pigs. They looked over the bike and congratulated me on such a beautiful creation and asked if I could make a couple more for them, and if I did, they would give me a couple of "get out of jail free" tickets to use if I was ever stopped for drunk driving or killing a granny as well as £5000 for each bike.

It wouldn't surprise me if that Ebay warning was written by one of the above forum members.

 

[Geebee]

I agree its only a story on the net, there have been several cases in Oz mostly scooter style bikes with pedals.

 

[Artstu]

I think this thread has proven that it is not possible to use these S class bikes as bicycles

I wonder what the owners of these bikes do with them instead? perhaps they've taken onboard the comments about knives and turned them into some sort of lethal killing machines. ...

 

[flecc]

It should be remembered that when 50cycles first started to represent Kalkhoff in the UK, Kalkhoff did not have a presence in the USA. Therefore 50cycles were also exporting that brand to the USA where many states allow much higher powers and assist speeds.

And of course 50cycles are not the only supplier of e-bikes that do not comply with pedelec law, Xipi and numerous ebay suppliers do also.

Kalkhoff themselves have an English language page on legal advice linked to below, and if you click the second drop down "Legal requirements - fast e-bike, a light motorcycle", you'll see it includes a note that other countries' regulations may vary. There's also a footnote about legal observance at the foot of the webpage:

Kalkhoff legal advice webpage
.

 

[shemozzle999]

What is more worrying is that the Police with their newly appointed powers of prosecution for these type of offences seem to have misinterpreted the "blind eye approach" to ignore all ebikes that fall outside the legislation despite assurances to members of this forum that this is not the case.

 

[amigafan2003]

What is more worrying is that the Police with their newly appointed powers of prosecution for these type of offences seem to have misinterpreted the "blind eye approach" to ignore all ebikes that fall outside the legislation despite assurances to members of this forum that this is not the case.

What do you mean shemozzle? That they are prosecuting ebikes that adhere to EU rules but not UK rules or that they're ignoring ALL ebikes?

If it's the latter - well, it's hardly surprising is it given their lack of resources? Would you rather they focus on burglaries, assaults etc or a rider on an ebike going a bit quick?

As I alluded to before, unless an "illegal" ebike rider is involved in an accident, the supposed threat level doesn't even register on the police radar - especially if the bike in question still looks like, well a bike. After all - if it looks like a bike - then why would the police have any reason at all to stop the rider? You can't say "ooh, he's doing 25mph or even 30mph, so it must be illegal" when normal cyclists can do this speed anyway. I've ridden past "bike bobbies" at 25mph and they've not even batted an eyelid (of course I roll off the throttle if I'm about to pass one at 35mph ;-) ).

OFC, if you're riding an illegal ebike then it makes sense to make sure you're obeying the rules of the road to ensure you don't suddenly pop on on their radar ;-)

 

[flecc]

What is more worrying is that the Police with their newly appointed powers of prosecution for these type of offences seem to have misinterpreted the "blind eye approach" to ignore all ebikes that fall outside the legislation despite assurances to members of this forum that this is not the case.

It's a traffic matter, and if other forces are anything like the Metropolitan Police of London, traffic department staffing has been cut to a bare minimum to cope with all their many other priorities.

When they had the recent blitz on traffic after a spate of cyclist deaths, most of the officers were temporarily drafted in from their other normal duties, to which they've long since returned.

 

[SRS]

SRS...quoting your posting'I merely suggest that if it is legal to buy the bike in the first place,then it would be reasonable to be legal to use it for it's manufactured purpose' I cannot have any argument with that statement,we as retailers have a duty of care,both legally and morally,to sell you a product that is legal for you to use for it's manufactured purpose,that is as a bicycle....I think this thread has proven that it is not possible to use these S class bikes as bicycles.
Dave

It is possible to use and S class as a bicycle, many people are doing it. It may be illegal but they are doing it.

Same as a lot of people are using illegal race cans on their motorbikes along with small registration plates. Legally sold and purchased.

I agree that a dealer should have a moral responsibility to inform the buyer of any legal implications. I do not believe that they should not sell the products, after all, its not illegal to sell them.

If you do not wish to sell them, that's fine. I do not think a dealer selling would be classed as a rogue, I believe you probably have some grudge against the particular dealer.

Market the best bikes for the best prices in the UK and you will have winner.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Selling them doesn't make the dealer a rouge.

Selling them and not telling the customer it's illegal to use then in the uk DOES make the dealer a rouge trader.

I don't see how you could argue against that?

 

[pn_day]

Rouge trader? Spare their blushes!

 

[SRS]

Selling them doesn't make the dealer a rouge.

Selling them and not telling the customer it's illegal to use then in the uk DOES make the dealer a rouge trader.

I don't see how you could argue against that?

If this is is a deliberate act of deceit in order to gain a sale, then I would agree 100%.
I am only aware of one occasion when this said to have happened and am not in receipt of of all the facts. I doubt it was a deliberate act but cannot make a judgement.

 

[amigafan2003]

Selling them doesn't make the dealer a rouge.

Selling them and not telling the customer it's illegal to use then in the uk DOES make the dealer a rouge trader.

I don't see how you could argue against that?

I'm sorry, I don't agree with this at all.

That's like a vaping shop selling a water pipe but having to tell the customer not to put cannabis in it, only tobacco, or B&Q selling a chainsaw but telling the customer it's only to be used for cutting down trees, not removing human limbs.

Too much namby pambying anout imho - a customer should do their own research prior to a purchase. As long as it's not misadvertised as being road legal, I can't see what the issue is.

Can you imagine how long you'd be in a shop is the seller had to tell you all the things you CAN'T do with a product!

"Yes sir, that KTM bike is perfet for your needs, but before you take it home I have to tell you not to ride it off the Eifel tower, do not ride it into a volcano, don't use it on the beach, don't ride it under water, don't let your dog ride it, don't ride it whilst drunk, don't ride it whilst wearing flip flops, don't ride it with a parrot on your shoulder whilst doing the hokey kokey whilst downing a bottle of rum whilst smoking a spliff trying to outrun the police whilst wearing a Borat bikini" and so on to infinity.........................

 

[tillson]

Too much namby pambying anout imho - a customer should do their own research prior to a purchase. As long as it's not misadvertised as being road legal, I can't see what the issue is..............

How about a shop accepting a cycle to work scheme type of voucher in exchange for something which is not a bicycle, but is a German S Pedelec? This is exactly what has happened in the case of the OP. He has presented a voucher to a shop and that voucher is specifically intended to be used for the purchase of a bicycle. It has taxation benefits if used to buy a bicycle. The shop has then taken that voucher and together with the customer they have colluded in manipulating the system in order to make a sale of something other than a bicycle.

There is quite a bit wrong with that.

 

[SRS]

How about a shop accepting a cycle to work scheme type of voucher in exchange for a moped? This is exactly what has happened in the case of the OP. He has presented a voucher to a shop and that voucher is specifically intended to be used for the purchase of a bicycle. It has taxation benefits if used to buy a bicycle. The shop have then taken that voucher and together with the customer they have colluded in defrauding the system in order to make a moped sale.

There is quite a bit wrong with that.

Its not a moped, its the same bicycle as any other. If it was a moped, you'd be able to travel at 30 mph with your feet in the air.
It would be a F site heavier with all the electrical crap fitted that a moped has. More than likely have a pillion seat. Probably have 5hp + engine too.

If you ordered a moped and a S Pedelec arrived, you'd send it back. Get real.

 

[HelenJ]

Not pointing the finger at anyone here as it's been heated from all angles; it is divisive so reactions and opinions are bound to be strong, but can they please be reasonable and fact-based.

In the nature of how we want to the forum to be, i.e. constructive/respectful, including professional respect amongst traders, can we hold back a bit on the inflammatory opinion as a way of getting across your point of view please (rogue, unscientific 20mphers, inebriation, anything that can't be substantiated).There's some really informative factual stuff in parts of this thread, so thanks for those contributions and could we please carry on in that vein please. To us it's important that topics like this are visible and debated freely by all without the need arising for us to edit/amend/remove bits. Thanks.