Two boys die in "ebike" accident: Cardiff riot broke out after 'police prevented parents seeing fatal crash victims', close relative says

[Benjahmin]

So, let me get this straight.
We all want to live peaceful lives. To that end we employ people to be 'Officers of the Peace'. Now what seems to be being said here is that such officers should not seek to apprehend people who are breaking the law (and hence the peace) in case said people injure themselves trying to get away with it.
So, if a guy on a lightweight motorbike shoots someone through a car window and wizzes off, all he's got to do to stop being chased is throw his crash helmet on the floor. Really?
Careful what you wish for chaps.
As has been said, these two unfortunate lads killed themselves having been led astray by those who should have been mentors.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

So, let me get this straight.
We all want to live peaceful lives. To that end we employ people to be 'Officers of the Peace'. Now what seems to be being said here is that such officers should not seek to apprehend people who are breaking the law (and hence the peace) in case said people injure themselves trying to get away with it.
So, if a guy on a lightweight motorbike shoots someone through a car window and wizzes off, all he's got to do to stop being chased is throw his crash helmet on the floor. Really?
Careful what you wish for chaps.
As has been said, these two unfortunate lads killed themselves having been led astray by those who should have been mentors.

We have become a country of idealistic morons unfortunately you see it with the justice system, foreign policy, economic policies. Ultimately everything needs to be costed and affordable but instead we just borrow creating huge debts for ourselves and future generations. As we become a poorer country idealism becomes less and less affordable. The longer we take to sort ourselves out and stop listening to such idealistic cretins the bigger the crunch will be when we hit rock bottom and rely on IMF bailouts.

 

[StuartsProjects]

So, if a guy on a lightweight motorbike shoots someone through a car window and wizzes off, all he's got to do to stop being chased is throw his crash helmet on the floor. Really?

That surprises me too.

I can understand that best practice might be that in most circumstances those not wearing helmets should not be persued, but the suggestion has been that the Police are not 'allowed' to.

So no possible circumstances when chasing non helemeted riders can be done ?

 

[saneagle]

Have you watched the vids ? especially the home owners cctv. Clearly they were.

If you came to that conclusion, you only watched half of the video, which was the disingenuous half that caused the outcry. The first half shows the kids riding in the opposite direction a few seconds before. You can't follow or chase someone when they're coming towards you.

 

[flecc]

So no possible circumstances when chasing non helemeted riders can be done ?

They can follow at a normal driving distance but not chase (pressurise). The moment the crew escalate it to a pursuit (chase) they have to start continuously reporting in the danger levels. This often results in them being ordered to stand down and abandon the pursuit.

In this case they were following, not chasing, as clearly evidenced by no blue lights. After turning off the cul de sac so no longer directly following, the crew received the accident radio call and being the closest police vehicle, they used blues and twos to get to the scene and were of course the first to arrive.

That was what caused the riot, the impression given by the blues and twos on prompt arrival at the accident scene that they had being in pursuit conditions. They were clearly not just before the accident, they were not even present in that road, and those saying they were are wrong and should now stop saying they were.
.

 

[portals]

So, if a guy on a lightweight motorbike shoots someone through a car window and wizzes off, all he's got to do to stop being chased is throw his crash helmet on the floor. Really?
Careful what you wish for chaps.

This is a pretty ignorant comment, common sense and a brain would tell you that comparing shooting someone to two young kids riding an ebike around an estate is somewhat different...it's about degrees....and engaging your brain.....innit....are you a cop?

 

[portals]

We have become a country of idealistic morons unfortunately you see it with the justice system, foreign policy, economic policies. Ultimately everything needs to be costed and affordable but instead we just borrow creating huge debts for ourselves and future generations. As we become a poorer country idealism becomes less and less affordable. The longer we take to sort ourselves out and stop listening to such idealistic cretins the bigger the crunch will be when we hit rock bottom and rely on IMF bailouts.

Nuts, I've put this response down to the bank holiday 'sauce', cannot think of any other rational explanation for this post....

 

[portals]

If you came to that conclusion, you only watched half of the video, which was the disingenuous half that caused the outcry. The first half shows the kids riding in the opposite direction a few seconds before. You can't follow or chase someone when they're coming towards you.

OMG, the cops were following/chasing/pursuing the kids to whatever mix of the three you want to believe, you're saying you can't follow/chase someone if they're coming towards you...are you mad...just ask a rapist cop?

 

[portals]

That was what caused the riot, the impression given by the blues and twos on arrival at the accident scene that they had being in pursuit conditions. They were clearly not before the accident and those saying they were are wrong and should now stop saying they were.

Clearly they were in pursuit before the crash as videos above clearly show, just because they weren't right behind them when they crashed and were trying to catch them up doesn't change that fact, they were most definitely pursuing them.

Are you a cop too?

 

[lenny]

' someone ran into the crowd and said ‘I’ve got a video of the police chasing them’, and that is what started it. '

Family of teen killed in Cardiff crash reveal what started riot after ‘police chase’

Kyrees Sullivan, 16, and Harvey Evans, 15, died in an electric bike crash in Ely on Monday, sparking a night of riots in Cardiff

www.independent.co.uk

 

[portals]

' someone ran into the crowd and said ‘I’ve got a video of the police chasing them’, and that is what started it. '

Started what? The kids were already dead....

For sure they have a video of cops chasing them as that's what happened.

 

[lenny]

Started what? The kids were already dead....

For sure they have a video of cops chasing them as that's what happened.

Children intimidated to death.

Officer 'had grudge' against tragic teens and often tried to 'run them off road'

A friend of Kyrees Sullivan, 16, and Harvey Evans, 15, claims they were targeted by police while out on e-bikes, with one officer in particular allegedly holding a grudge against them

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[flecc]

Clearly they were in pursuit before the crash as videos above clearly show, just because they weren't right behind them when they crashed and were trying to catch them up doesn't change that fact, they were most definitely pursuing them.

Are you a cop too?

No they were not and the videos shown nothing of the sort. With the motorcycists unhelmeted, for safety reasons they were simply following in a normal traffic manner in the hope of being able to enforce the law in due course, which is their duty when seeing law being broken. If in pursuit to enforce a stop they would have been using blues and twos and they clearly were not.

That is the whole point of the blue lights and siren, they constitute a police order to stop. Since, as the videos show, they clearly were not using blue lights, they were not ordering the rider to stop so were not in a pursuit and detain mode.

And no I am not a "cop". Very different in fact since I have previously spent a decade working with a South London criminal law solicitor mounting successful cases against the police when they were unfairly prosecuting. I was once sarcastically called a professional witness due to the number of times I appeared in courts at every level to give evidence against the police.

My successes included an appearance at the Old Bailey where my evidence overturned a five year sentence. Was the appellant guilty? Yes he was, but the police had used false evidence to convict him and that is a street we cannot let them go down. And on a very much lesser scale I have been instrumental in preventing the police prosecuting a pedelecer after the DfT had wrongly advised that they could.

So I am no friend of the police, especially being in London where we have often had this country's most dishonest and corrupt police service. But on the other hand my best friend here is a neighbour and a Met Police officer, though when we first became friends he wasn't in the police.

So I have a balanced view of police forces, neither friend nor enemy, finding fairly in any incident without prior bias.
.

 

[portals]

And no I am not a "cop". Very different in fact since I have previously spent a decade working with a South London criminal law solicitor mounting successful cases against the police when they were unfairly prosecuting. I was once sarcastically called a professional witness due to the number of times I appeared in courts at every level to give evidence against the police.

My successes included an appearance at the Old Bailey where my evidence overturned a five year sentence. Was the appellant guilty? Yes he was, but the police had used false evidence to convict him and that is a street we cannot let them go down. And on a very much lesser scale I have been instrumental in preventing the police prosecuting a pedelecer after the DfT had wrongly advised that they could.

Well I applaud you for that.

No they were not and the videos shown nothing of the sort. With the motorcycists unhelmeted, for safety reasons they were simply following in a normal traffic manner in the hope of being able to enforce the law in due course, which is their duty when seeing law being broken. If in pursuit to enforce a stop they would have been using blues and twos and they clearly were not.

Disingenuous being kind.

The cops spooked the kids, they crashed and died under unnecessary pressure, 'blues and twos' b0ll0x is irrelevant, the cops knew what they were doing.

 

[flecc]

The cops spooked the kids, they crashed and died under unnecessary pressure, 'blues and twos' b0ll0x is irrelevant, the cops knew what they were doing.

Completely wrong again.

The kids had escaped by using a barrier gap and could then see no police vehicle following. It follows that there was absolutely no pressure of any sort at the time of the crash seconds after leaving the barrier.

The truth is more likely that the rider was so elated at losing the police that he became over confident, cocky enough to exceed his abilities as a 15 year old rider, paying a terrible price for that.
.

 

[saneagle]

Officer 'had grudge' against tragic teens and often tried to 'run them off road'

A friend of Kyrees Sullivan, 16, and Harvey Evans, 15, claims they were targeted by police while out on e-bikes, with one officer in particular allegedly holding a grudge against them

www.mirror.co.uk

I love that. Some mate of the teenagers said that the police had a grudge against them. Well that can't be true because a friend of a policeman said that that mate is a know liar.

 

[AndyBike]

I wouldn't do this on my petrol moped so why he thinks it is fine to do so on a faster electric bike shows the issue with these bikes.

So he's effectively riding a motorbike along pavements, park footpaths etc while spouting off about 'grey areas' when its clear, probably to himself that he is riding a motorbike not an Ebike-Ebike being the term for the 15.5mph pedal variety.

 

[flecc]

Ebike being the term for the 15.5mph pedal variety.

Not really and that is the problem, misusing this term. Ebike or e-bike are terms describing any electrically powered bicycle, whether pedalled or not, whether complying with EAPC law or not.

The correct terms for the 15.5 mph bureaucracy free variety are either the legal term EAPC (Electric Assist Pedal Cycle) or pedelec, both of them asserting the dominance of pedalling being necessary, hence no throttle permission.

If only everyone in this forum would use the correct terminology, much of the confusion might disappear. That includes me since even I at times slip into mentioning e-bike, which I shouldn't do.

Slap on wrist duly self administered.
.

 

[passionate off roader]

Forgive my ignorance, but there's something about all this that I can't quite get me 'ed round.

Forget the police for a moment. From where I was looking, the two lads appeared to be on a bike which is designed for one person. Not a motor bike with a pillion passenger, but a bike (e or otherwise), with one saddle, which is designed for one. Now I know for a hard and certain fact that it is bloody difficult to control a bike with another person on it. Many of us have tried it at one time or another when we were kids, usually in safer surroundings. For one thing the weight distribution is to cock, and this pulls the bike over to one side.

So my question is a) was the bike designed for two ( for all I know it might have been) and b) if not, is it illegal to ride a bike designed for one, with somebody else on it?

Bottom line, was it an e bike as we know them, or something entirely different?

 

[flecc]

Forgive my ignorance, but there's something about all this that I can't quite get me 'ed round.

Forget the police for a moment. From where I was looking, the two lads appeared to be on a bike which is designed for one person. Not a motor bike with a pillion passenger, but a bike (e or otherwise), with one saddle, which is designed for one. Now I know for a hard and certain fact that it is bloody difficult to control a bike with another person on it. Many of us have tried it at one time or another when we were kids, usually in safer surroundings. For one thing the weight distribution is to cock, and this pulls the bike over to one side.

So my question is a) was the bike designed for two ( for all I know it might have been) and b) if not, is it illegal to ride a bike designed for one, with somebody else on it?

It has a longish seat with a metal extension and apparently passenger footrests are available as an extra. But it's not really relevant since the use was illegal in so many ways:

It was clearly an offroad motorcycle which the maker calls a "Youth Electric Motocross Bike".

The rider was 15 so under age with no driving licence or third party insurance.

Even shortly after at 16 he would be on a provisional licence, meaning carrying a passenger is illegal.

Both were not wearing a crash helmet.

Machine not registered or number plated, possibly not type approved for road use.