Two boys die in "ebike" accident: Cardiff riot broke out after 'police prevented parents seeing fatal crash victims', close relative says

[portals]

How did the wine fare?

Not well, red was smashed to pieces, white was broken in two.

I only just cleaned out the back pack today (I was just going to bin it however it's practically brand new). I removed the shards of glass by continually rinsing out the backpack with warm water until no glass showed and it stopped running red/pink. I'll let it dry for a week and hopefully it will be as good as new.

Incredibly lucky I'd say. Broken bottles would easily slice right through any backpack and straight into your flesh. There have been many cases of people falling with wine bottles and not surviving the horrific injuries they can cause.

I will be extremely careful if I ever end up carrying glass bottles in backpack again, I plan on getting panniers.

Here's the pack before cleaning after removing the white bottle...

 

[matthewslack]

Not well, red was smashed to pieces, white was broken in two.

I only just cleaned out the back pack today (I was just going to bin it however it's practically brand new). I removed the shards of glass by continually rinsing out the backpack with warm water until no glass showed and it stopped running red/pink. I'll let it dry for a week and hopefully it will be as good as new.




I will be extremely careful if I ever end up carrying glass bottles in backpack again, I plan on getting panniers.

Here's the pack before cleaning after removing the white bottle...
View attachment 51795

Red wine adds character, spilt milk is another matter.

Hope those bruises clear up OK.

 

[AndyBike]

what would you do if you were the police? Ignore the boys and their bike?

It doesn't matter what I/you might want or think we should do its what the law says should be done.

The police are not allowed to chase, or follow closely because if an accident occurs, the lack of a helmet would result in serious injury/death. So they must back right off and allow the rider to go.

They didnt do that, they continued on after them which is encouragement for the riders to try to escape*
The riders/driver is concentrating on whats behind rather than in front.

* This is human nature. fight or flee is hard wired into us and while it is fine to condemn and say they should have stopped, it implies that because they didn't then they deserved anything and everything that came to them.

For starters that shows a complete lack of empathy.

But in that scenario its not just dangerous for them, but for any other road users or pedestrians and what you are claiming then is the police must continue and put the lives of the other road users or pedestrians at risk in order to uphold the law.
We must never look to uphold the law to the detriment of everyone else.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Not well, red was smashed to pieces, white was broken in two.

So it all ended up mixed and 'Rose' really .....................

 

[StuartsProjects]

Ely: Aunt of bike crash victim says police are to blame

Harvey Evans and friend Kyrees Sullivan died after the e-bike they were on crashed in Ely, Cardiff.

www.bbc.co.uk

"She explained how Harvey, a fan of e-bikes and scooters, had told his father he was going to take Kyrees home on his electric bike, which was an early 16th birthday present, after they had had tea together.

"Harvey had only just had this bike and didn't want to lose it. He turned back and the police gave chase," she alleged."

 

[Woosh]

Didn't want to lose it? So the family knew that the police would confiscate it?

 

[portals]

Hope those bruises clear up OK.

Thank you , they were mostly away after 3 weeks or so however I still have a scabby knee...unfortunately I'm still a picker...

So it all ended up mixed and 'Rose' really .....................

Pretty much yes, it all disappeared in the gutter...apart from the glass I managed to wring from the bottom of the backpack when back in flat... (kidding....)

 

[portals]

"Harvey had only just had this bike and didn't want to lose it. He turned back and the police gave chase," she alleged."

Didn't want to lose it? So the family knew that the police would confiscate it?

From what we know or think we know I believe it's more probable than not that the family new the ebike they were buying was illegal and the son new that too hence a reluctance to engage or go anywhere near cops, just like many 1000s of ebikers who might be riding illegal ebikes that break the max 250W/max 15.5mph/no throttle/pedals laws.

The police are not allowed to chase, or follow closely because if an accident occurs, the lack of a helmet would result in serious injury/death. So they must back right off and allow the rider to go.

They didnt do that, they continued on after them which is encouragement for the riders to try to escape*
The riders/driver is concentrating on whats behind rather than in front.

* This is human nature. fight or flee is hard wired into us and while it is fine to condemn and say they should have stopped, it implies that because they didn't then they deserved anything and everything that came to them.

This is a good point, it's actually fright->flight->fight that the limbic brain defaults to under stress.

Ever been sat down to say late Sunday family dinner and the doorbell goes that nobody's expecting, for a split second everybody freezes for a moment? This is the limbic 'fright' reaction, it's a natural reaction that we're programmed with to survive for millions yrs. If you bumped in to a wild animal 1000s yrs ago first reaction was to freeze and hope you're not spotted, if that fails it's flight so you leg it, that fails and it's a fight to the death, we still have that built-in by default.

We'll never know for sure if the boys were under duress from cops and in genuine limbic 'flight' when they crashed, if so then there are questions to be answered as the cops potentially have some liability.

 

[portals]

To put it another way, if they hadn't run in to cops that day would they still have crashed? Probably a question that will be asked at some point.

 

[soundwave]

To put it another way, if they hadn't run in to cops that day would they still have crashed? Probably a question that will be asked at some point.

if you dont crash you dont learn your lesson and dont do it again like no crash helmet or gloves because there are to many nut jobs round here anyway and if you are run over you might get stabbed to death anyway if being ran over is not enough in the first place.

the few ppl i have let have a go on my bike most have nearly gone over the handlebars as not used to how fast it can go with a 75nm motor and my brake levers are like buttons.

even at just under 24kg my bike is a handful of road down hill on the bike tracks in the forest because i cant hop and slide it around as much so a 50kg bike in that case would be worse than useless.

 

[soundwave]

 

[Chainmale]

Where I live the youth seem to be quite old fashioned and most unregistered unlicensed motorbikes are still of the petrol variety. I can't help wondering how much the term "ebike" has influenced the media reporting and subsequent discussion on this unfortunate incident. To the wider public I think the term "ebike" conjures up an image of a more innocent and less dangerous machine than it's internal combustion powered cousin's.

 

[guerney]

Where I live the youth seem to be quite old fashioned and most unregistered unlicensed motorbikes are still of the petrol variety.

I was a youth with a licensed motorbike, insurance, license plates and helmet... but I was fined at 1.00am one night, after my insurance ran out at midnight. Genuine unintended mistake (I forgot about the insurance expiry date, and was out too long), but copped without mercy. Expensive hour... three points...

To the wider public I think the term "ebike" conjures up an image of a more innocent and less dangerous machine than it's internal combustion powered cousin's.

Would those same parents/relatives have bought them a 125cc or similar for their 16th birthday, and allowed them to ride it without helmets etc?

 

[The Silverfox]

Everybody blaming the police for following them. Isn’t that their job? They weren’t behind them when the crash happened, the police had turned down a different road and were half a mile away at the time of the crash.

Ultimately, the parents must take responsibility. They bought the bike for the boy and knew it was illegal to ride on the road and yet they let him, without a helmet. It is that decision that led to this tragedy. I don’t blame the boys one bit, they were let down by the parents.

 

[flecc]

Ultimately, the parents must take responsibility. They bought the bike for the boy and knew it was illegal to ride on the road and yet they let him, without a helmet. It is that decision that led to this tragedy. I don’t blame the boys one bit, they were let down by the parents.

Fully agreed, and ultimately it's all the justice necessary, since it is the parents who are left suffering the awful consequences of their decisions.

The two boys are not suffering, they instantly died doing what they obviously loved doing and they have arguably not lost anything since they cannot have missed what they had never had.
.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Let’s get this right, these bikes are not illegal. They are powered vehicles and as such need to comply with the law on the use of powered vehicles on the road. That’s being registered, having insurance and a rider with the correct licence. Powered bicycles that have a 250 watt or less motor and where the power cuts out at 15mph have been granted a concession whereby they are treated as non powered vehicles That sounds quite reasonable to me. If people insist on breaking the law the concession might be removed.

You are quoting me regarding the direct drive hub motor ebikes used with throttles for the gig economy deliveries. I've already shown those are perfectly legal for such use depending on wattage and assisted speed without tax, insurance, helmet etc. You need to counter my individual points you disagree with, with your alternative points.

Do you disagree with the 'Department for Transport' statement regarding throttles on kit ebikes for example?

 

[passionate off roader]

For me the most blindingly obvious factor is that there were two of them on a non tandem bike, rendering it very difficult to control. The police were half a mile away when the accident occurred, after they had "escaped" down an alley or blocked off road.

I'd say it was their fault. Blaming the police is moronic.

 

[mountainride]

It doesn't matter what I/you might want or think we should do its what the law says should be done.

The police are not allowed to chase, or follow closely because if an accident occurs, the lack of a helmet would result in serious injury/death. So they must back right off and allow the rider to go.

They didnt do that, they continued on after them which is encouragement for the riders to try to escape*
The riders/driver is concentrating on whats behind rather than in front.

* This is human nature. fight or flee is hard wired into us and while it is fine to condemn and say they should have stopped, it implies that because they didn't then they deserved anything and everything that came to them.

For starters that shows a complete lack of empathy.

Even college students write papers like this thesis statement on police brutality, the behavior of the police has become such an important topic in society. It's time to start treating their actions as carefully as possible, I do not want my children to use news like this about 2 guys when writing an essay for college. In that scenario its not just dangerous for them, but for any other road users or pedestrians and what you are claiming then is the police must continue and put the lives of the other road users or pedestrians at risk in order to uphold the law.
We must never look to uphold the law to the detriment of everyone else.

I agree. In this case, where the risks of persecution may outweigh the benefits of detention, the police should have stepped back and applied other methods to identify them and apprehend them in a safer situation.

 

[passionate off roader]

You are quoting me regarding the direct drive hub motor ebikes used with throttles for the gig economy deliveries. I've already shown those are perfectly legal for such use depending on wattage and assisted speed without tax, insurance, helmet etc. You need to counter my individual points you disagree with, with your alternative points.

Do you disagree with the 'Department for Transport' statement regarding throttles on kit ebikes for example?

Perfectly true. You are under no legal obligation to wear a helmet when riding a bike, be it an e bike, or conventional push bike. Yet the media coverage has made a big issue of them not wearing helmets, but weirdly omitted to mention there were two characters on a bike meant only for one.

 

[AndyBike]

Everybody blaming the police for following them. Isn’t that their job? They weren’t behind them when the crash happened, the police had turned down a different road and were half a mile away at the time of the crash.

The law states they cannot continue to chase the riders for fear of it ending up in an accident, a lidless rider being more prone to serious injury due to the lack of lid.
As to the police being on a different road, that is far from unusual as the police know the area, and may drive parallel or use the road system thus to 'head off' a driver or whomever. We see that all the time ien police chases. They dont all drive down the same road, some go this way, or whatever because they know the road system and try to use it to their advantage.

As it appears here the police, knowing the road was blocked to their large vehicle but not the bike further on, took it upon themselves to use the road to circumvent the bollards further down. Had there been no accident, the police van would have resumed the chase further down the road.
The fact they came upon the accident only a minute or so after it happened shows that they were heading for where the bike would be once it had passed the bollards.

the police drivers actions were to put himself(van) on a course that would allow them to intercept the bike. Thats the truth of it. Claiming they weren't on the same road doesn't detract from the point they were in fact still chasing them.
The police actions was they unable to continue on, he first turned left, and what would follow would be a right turn to bring him back behind the riders. The reason for their actions is pretty much a logical path.

This is why so many are critical of the police because they can see what they were doing and the reasons for them doing it.
First claiming they weren't chasing the rider, but quickly adapted that statement once the CCTV footage came out showing them doing just that.