Trek Cytronex - First Impressions.

[keithhazel]

And they take up space when you remember to pack them, whereas mudguards just sit there ready to stop you looking like all the other prannies with mud streaks right up their backs.

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yer that was the phrase i was looking for...lol

 

[Chris_Bike]

John

Is that with the power on low constantly or a mixture of both. I'm thinking about this bike but need to be reassured on battery performance. If it was all low then as I understand it, that only assists to 9mph which is easily exceeded my human effort.

Low power assits to about 12.5 Paul and high power to about 16. Having now done lots of rides, I can say that I get about 17/18 miles on high power and about 22/23 on low - that is on a hilly course, I've had 27 on a flatter one.

Let me say (before others do) that those figures obviously depend upon how much pedalling you do. It is not hard to exceed 12.5 on the flat without motor assist and impossible to avoid 16+ downhill. Having said that, I don't sweat on this bike.

I suspect it's easier to achieve these ranges than many of you think.

 

[flecc]

The new website says low power assists up to 11 mph, Paul seems to have seen 9 mph somewhere, but you say 12.5 mph Chris.

I'm wondering if it's dependent on the battery charge state, i.e. hot off the charger at peak volts, 12.5 mph, later declining with the normal voltage decline of the NiMh battery as the charge diminishes, so passing through 11 mph to 9 mph with the battery very low.

That would be normal with the behaviour of most controllers on these motors, and the website's 11 mph would in that case be an honest declaration of the mean speed on low power, which makes sense.
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[Mark/Cytronex]

Just to clarify, our 20 mile range is based on the following useage:

Full power whenever you can maintain over 11mph with assistance which is actually likely to be much of the time.

Low power under 11mph and greater than 5mph.

Motor off when above maximum speed such as downhill, or below 5mph.

I rarely ever use low speed (only on a 1 in 4 near our office).

The significance of the 11mph recommendation is that if you drop below that on full speed (e.g. because the hills is very steep) it becomes less efficient than using the low speed, i.e. the motor is using a lot of energy for little gain over the low speed setting. I don't know where the 9mph mentioned came from, but this would be roughly the speed at which it would not make any difference in torque whether you were on high or low speed on a very steep hill (but of course you would be wasting energy on high speed).

Assume somebody has mentioned it below, but our web sites are now running, although still require a bit of tweaking:

no-hills.com
Cytronex - Hidden Power

Regards,

Mark

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the clarification Mark.

Yes, John (Aldby) has posted for members that your website is up and running now.
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[john]

The significance of the 11mph recommendation is that if you drop below that on full speed (e.g. because the hills is very steep) it becomes less efficient than using the low speed, i.e. the motor is using a lot of energy for little gain over the low speed setting.

That would be true if there was no current limit. Surely on a slow steep hill the controller is current limiting, meaning that the high/medium 'throttle' setting makes no difference.

 

[frank9755]

im working it on the basis that I would want to travel at say 15mph which would mean the motor is effectively redundent when on low power and the range (guessing here) on high would not be enough for me to use it for non commute purposes like a run out to the country which is where id like the lower weight in comparison to my Agattu and Torq. I will watch with interest for when someone can give high power test data.

If I were you I'd still try it, Paul.

It obviously depends on how much you pedal but for a pretty average cyclist on a decent quality, light bike with a Tongxin motor in the wheel, you just don't need assistance on the flat to go at 15mph (in the way that you do need it to do that on a Torq or Wisper). The motor then kicks in for the hills and headwinds, so your speed doesn't drop below 11mph, and you go faster downhill.

So I can see low power mode giving you an average speed of 15mph.

 

[flecc]

So I can see low power mode giving you an average speed of 15mph.

It doesn't seem to fit with John's (Aldby) experience though Frank.

He's found an average of 12.5 mph twice when riding with low power over approximately 20 miles in Milton Keynes area, which is not very hilly as he acknowledges.
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[coops]

As I understand it Frank, from what Mark says, full, not low power is needed to keep above 11mph on slopes: IIRC on low power both Chris & John got around 12-13mph average: 11mph is the top speed at low power, so on slopes it would be less, 5-11mph Mark said.

If you're going to pedal enough for 15mph unassisted on the flat, though, then if you instead follow Mark's usage guidelines - use high power on flat & slopes where you can keep above 11mph, low power on slopes sub 11mph & power off downhill or sub 5mph, then you should get the average of ~20miles anyway (maybe less in hills, probably more on flat - like Chris's range of 16-27miles for instance).

Then if you find you need more range, second battery .

PS I can see where Paul is coming from - I like to use my Torq for trips out of the city which can be up to 40miles in all and I'd go further if I had more battery capacity (roll on 14Ah 36V Ezees! ): such trips would most likely require 2 cytronex batteries.

Stuart.

 

[Chris_Bike]

As I understand it Frank, from what Mark says, full, not low power is needed to keep above 11mph on slopes: IIRC on low power both Chris & John got around 12-13mph average: 11mph is the top speed at low power, so on slopes it would be less, 5-11mph Mark said.

If you're going to pedal enough for 15mph unassisted on the flat, though, then if you instead follow Mark's usage guidelines - use high power on flat & slopes where you can keep above 11mph, low power on slopes sub 11mph & power off downhill or sub 5mph, then you should get the average of ~20miles anyway (maybe less in hills, probably more on flat - like Chris's 'range' of 16-27miles for instance).

Then if you find you need more range, second battery .

Stuart.

I think that's nearly true Stuart. The max speed on low (on the flat) is actually nearer 12.5 - I think what Mark is saying is to get max speed you should switch to high power at 11 to get assist up to about 15.5 - 16.

I find my average speeds are about 13 on low or 15 if I leave it on high (which I don't generally do). The corresponding ranges I have experienced as as posted earlier.

 

[coops]

Yes, I see it now Chris - so 11mph is the slowest recommended speed for full power, rather than top speed at low power... and assist speeds are as you've said - simple really!

Its good to have a new and practical non-throttle control system to try to understand, especially when so many pedal (pedelec) speed control systems seem flawed in one way or another, and it sounds very simple to get used to.

I can't remember now what ranges you got with full power, or whether that was with low power on steep stuff like Mark sugested, but with more ride time, and if you feel a need for more speed, you might find as I have that by increasing pedal input in proportion to ride speed, you can maintain a fairly constant range independent of speed - the same applies to hills too though thats more difficult to gauge - I just pedal like the clappers up hills & it seems to help!

PS Just looked at the gearing on the trek and you're not lacking high gears are you - 122" top gear?!

Stuart.

 

[Cyclezee]

It would be nice to see some more Cytronex owners posting on here apart from myself and Chris, hint hint! There has to be more than just the two us by now?
I'm off to Berlin tomorrow, so won't be posting anymore for a week or so.

J hn

 

[frank9755]

It doesn't seem to fit with John's (Aldby) experience though Frank.

He's found an average of 12.5 mph twice when riding with low power over approximately 20 miles in Milton Keynes area, which is not very hilly as he acknowledges.
.

Good point!
I remember the famous AtoB Brompton Nano review where they said they got higher average speeds in hillier areas, for exactly this reason - with little loss of speed on the uphills and downhill speed bringing the average up. The BN did have a higher capacity battery so could perhaps afford a bit more help on the flat too, but more likely though is that, with these type of bikes, it is really more due to the strength of the rider than other factors.

 

[flecc]

Good point!
I remember the famous AtoB Brompton Nano review where they said they got higher average speeds in hillier areas, for exactly this reason - with little loss of speed on the uphills and downhill speed bringing the average up. The BN did have a higher capacity battery so could perhaps afford a bit more help on the flat too, but more likely though is that, with these type of bikes, it is really more due to the strength of the rider than other factors.

That's exactly what I feel too Frank, as much about the rider's power as anything. But that's not to put the bike down, as it's a concept I welcome and for which a need exists.

I'm just concerned that others do not see this as an electric bike similar to the others and buy on that view, for most prospective e-bike customers will be doomed to disappointment if they do. I've been told that the bike will not be promoted in that way, but I've seen it already being done in this forum's threads.
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[coops]

I remember the famous AtoB Brompton Nano review where they said they got higher average speeds in hillier areas, for exactly this reason - with little loss of speed on the uphills and downhill speed bringing the average up.

I think though that "yer cannee change the laws of physics, cap'n!" faster overall average speed & less speed loss up hills means more energy used so less range: on low power you'll get more range as Chris & John have shown, but at lower average speed (~12.5-13mph) and on slopes speed is likely to be below 11mph, unless you pedal hard of course.

In line with yours and flecc's posts, to get the same range at higher 15mph-like speeds would be for a rider putting the requisite power in, and for that use its ideal for 20 miles or so.

I don't mind pedalling hard on slopes but I prefer to do so while doing 15mph or more so I feel like I'm getting up it faster .

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

As I see it Stuart, the snag with that 12.5 mph average in very moderate territory like Milton Keynes is that this 72 year old can easily average that on an unpowered bike in similar territory.

Given the costs, complexity, maintenance needs and extra weight of e-bikes, is there a point?

However, if an e-bike is wanted as in my much hillier North Downs area, I also averaged exactly that 12.5 mph over 4.5 years with the Lafree which gives far more help over 20 miles, and have since repeated that average on the Agattu on my range test, and that's with a 50 mile range capability. Both of those are very free rolling like the Cytronex of course, no hub motor drag. 15 mph averages are also available with those and similar bikes as well.

Again these examples emphasize that only a powerful sporting rider gets any real benefit from the Cytronex, all the average Joes amongst us being far better served by others like the ones I've mentioned, gaining both power and range benefits.
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[Chris_Bike]

Again these examples emphasize that only a powerful sporting rider gets any real benefit from the Cytronex........
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I hate to challenge the Guru, but I really think you should try riding one Flecc before you assert this. It is clear that John regards himself as an "average joe" and I really don't think that I'm much off the scale.

I have been desisting from comment because I don't want to be seen as promoting the bike. Like John, I think that prospective purchasers should test ride, which is easy to set up as Mark is just opposite Winchester Station.

You did write last week that you had made your point and wouldn't repeat it - well you have, hence my response.

BTW it's very hot in Athens and there's not an Ebike in sight.

 

[nigel]

I really like the specs of this bike i think its what i have been looking for a racing style electric bike but i do find forum members comments confusing perhaps a full summary of the bike might be helpful nigel.

 

[coops]

Yes I agree flecc

Now, if it came with a low profile battery with double the capacity & range, say 10Ah, which only added about an extra kilo to the weight (ie 3.1kg battery)...

But I suppose the cost would go up by at least the cost of a second battery now - 150 quid extra, which takes the total cost towards the price of other 'high end' bikes for similar or sometimes less battery capacity than they have as standard, and the type of motor used might still operate better with more pedalling.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

I hate to challenge the Guru, but I really think you should try riding one Flecc before you assert this. It is clear that John regards himself as an "average joe" and I really don't think that I'm much off the scale.

Now you've puzzled me even more Chris. Surely I've just clearly demonstrated that John is gaining little or no benefit over an ordinary bike on which he'd also probably be able to average 12.5 mph there.

So if that's no gain, who can gain? Surely the stronger rider who can use low power in more trying circumstances.

At my age I won't be a stronger rider than John, so that means there's no point in me trying one, since I can already average 12.5 mph and more on e-bikes that are very easy to pedal and give much better ranges.

For example, including my weight in both cases, the Pro Connect is only 4.3% heavier than the Cytronex which would make little difference, but in compensation I'd have a range of up to 50 miles and far more help on hills.

I came back on the subject because I felt the coverage was still very lopsided with no benefit presented as benefit, and I don't think any product should be specially sheltered from critical comment.

I absolutely agree with you about a prospective buyer trying first, and advocate that wherever possible on any e-bike and will do so with this one. The right bike for anyone is the one that they like after trying some, not always one of those anyone else advises.

We are enjoying hot sunny day too, I've been out for quite while.
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