Torque or speed sensor - preferences?

[JohnCade]

I don't understand your point unless you are telling me that there are not lots of places where mopeds and scooters can go.

Neither do I understand your aside but that's not important as your politics are of no interest to me whatsoever.

Tom

Really don't understand your dogmatism, or of some others here. Anyone who wants a torque sensor bike should buy one, and if they want a throttle then the same applies.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Whatever rules they have in Europe is totally irrelevant. Don't forget these are probably the same bureaucrats that wouldn't allow Caduburys to sell their chocolate because it didn't taste like the cat poo German stuff. It took 27 years to reverse that decision. And what about their regulation of the shape of bananas and the ban on churches selling jam in reused jam-jars. As I said before, in this country the regulations allow throttles. Maybe it's because our bureaucrats have a bit more common sense.

Tom, the poll shows that you're very much in the minority. Have a read of this thread:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/throttle-use-poll.10527/

 

[mike killay]

I find this disagreement somewhat spurious. As John Cade says above, buy what you want.
I guess that non throttle bikes appeal to those able to pedal strongly and perhaps live in rather flat areas.
I live in an extremely hilly area with very little flat ground. I don't want a parsimonious system doling out no more that 2.75 times my own effort when climbing hills. I want everything the bike can give.
It is quite common here for a steep hill to ease off but not flatten, so after a hard climb, you are faced with perhaps another mile or so of gentle rise. To be able to let the bike run along on throttle while you rest your legs is wonderful!

 

[Jimod]

. To be able to let the bike run along on throttle while you rest your legs is wonderful!

I don't have a throttle but fully understand you. The pedal sensor on my Kudos bikes lets me climb steep hill then lets the bike take over on the flats at the top with me very slowly turning the pedals. It fair lets you get your breath back.

 

[shemozzle999]

I would love to know how these torque sensors work.

I often hear the marketing hype banded about ever increasing multiplier figures that gives the impression the higher the number goes the more power you get but as the power is fixed to a limit I don't think that applies.

It is also said that they can match the riders effort and apply the multiplier to control the delivery of the power.

To me the higher the number just means they have created more step changes a bit like more power settings options on an led/lcd controller.

Of course the throttle is not restricted into steps it is infinitely variable from minimum to maximum control.

 

[trex]

watching the review on http://electricbikereview.com/easy-motion/neo-race/

it seems that the controller's input is switched between torque sensor output and the throttle. That accounts for the responsiveness of the bike.

 

[tillson]

I would love to know how these torque sensors work.

I often hear the marketing hype banded about ever increasing multiplier figures that gives the impression the higher the number goes the more power you get but as the power is fixed to a limit I don't think that applies.

It is also said that they can match the riders effort and apply the multiplier to control the delivery of the power.

I don't know how the Bosch or Impulse system works and I only have a limited idea about the Panasonic since it isn't easy to take it apart.

The Panasonic system measures torque about the the shaft which joins the pedal cranks on either side of the bike. I suppose this would be the bottom bracket on a conventional bike. I assume it does this via a system of strain gauges or something similar. The torque value is fed into the control system, which also measures the pedal cadence, so from those two inputs it's easy for the system to determine how much power the rider is contributing. The rider can then set a factor by which his effort is multiplied.

The Panasonic system only delivers power when you push down on the pedals and the harder and faster you turn them, the more power it delivers. This means that the power output is constantly varying (just like it is when you cycle unassisted) with peaks and troughs in motor power. I believe that some of the peaks can exceed 450 Watts. Add to that the rider's contribution and it makes for a very capable and natural feeling system. I love it, but I know that it doesn't suit everyone for a variety of reasons.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

watching the review on http://electricbikereview.com/easy-motion/neo-race/

it seems that the controller's input is switched between torque sensor output and the throttle. That accounts for the responsiveness of the bike.

I'm not sure what they mean by that. It doesn't have a throttle, does it?

 

[trex]

yes, it has a throttle. You can switch between torque sensor and throttle sensor.
I'll try to make one to test the idea with a XOFO built-in motor torque sensor and a KU63.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46608

 

[Kudoscycles]

I find this disagreement somewhat spurious. As John Cade says above, buy what you want.
I guess that non throttle bikes appeal to those able to pedal strongly and perhaps live in rather flat areas.
I live in an extremely hilly area with very little flat ground. I don't want a parsimonious system doling out no more that 2.75 times my own effort when climbing hills. I want everything the bike can give.
It is quite common here for a steep hill to ease off but not flatten, so after a hard climb, you are faced with perhaps another mile or so of gentle rise. To be able to let the bike run along on throttle while you rest your legs is wonderful!

Mike,I agree with everything you say,it is however now becoming more difficult to get e-bike manufacturers to fit full speed throttles.
However,with a speed sensor bike on max PAS setting you only have to turn the pedals slowly to get max power.
I sold a KudosTempo to an older lady who had previously used a lead acid Powacycle for many years,she was worried about the lack of full speed throttle(the Tempo has a 4 mph throttle for take off). She came back after a few days to say that because the bike was so much lighter and free wheeled easier she did not miss the throttle at all.
On my Kudos Secret bike I have started to use the throttle more,for easy take offs from standstill but I never use it once cruising ,even though it has a full speed throttle.
But I respect we all have different personal ways we use these bikes.
KudosDave

 

[JohnCade]

The throttle is very useful for hill starts too.

 

[enndee]

Must say when I tried a Big Bear I found having the throttle and the (revo?) gear change together rather awkward felt like the throttle bit was rather small. I can understand why people might want one if they cannot pedal at all but then it would seem a bit strange to use a bike though going for some fresh air on a bike is nice fir everyone I should think.
The problem I'm finding is slow speed control using pas, anyone know if it's possible to get the thumb throttle on a Typhoon to go a little faster? Or whether it's even ok to use other when walking?

 

[trex]

Must say when I tried a Big Bear I found having the throttle and the (revo?) gear change together rather awkward felt like the throttle bit was rather small.
...

the Big Bear has an index shift, full width throttle on the right grip with a red button to cut off the throttle if you don't want to use it.

Not revoshift.

 

[enndee]

Could have been the CDL then. When I got to the Cambs Woosh showroom they told me that the bb's were out of stock so I tried out a couple of the others there. Could be I'm totally misremembering though, it was a few months ago now.

 

[trex]

only a couple of their bikes have gear shift on the right. I think the Sirocco 2 does. Your memory is pretty good, the Sirocco 2 and Big Bear have same frame shape.
Big Bear is their biggest selling bike, no wonder they don't have stock in Cambridge.

 

[enndee]

Could have been the sirocco 2 as I tried that as well just remember thinking the grip was small on one I tried. Would think a revo and twist grip throttle would be an awkward combo, so might just be poor memory on my part as my daughters bike has revos and I much prefer my finger operated ones.

 

[trex]

I too don't like the half size split throttle on the Sirocco 2. You've got to operate with your thumb and index finger, rather awkward.

throttle on the Sirocco 2:

 

[Jimod]

The problem I'm finding is slow speed control using pas, anyone know if it's possible to get the thumb throttle on a Typhoon to go a little faster? Or whether it's even ok to use other when walking?

The thumb throttle on the Typhoon isn't full speed when used alone, it's designed for walking beside I think. I sometimes, when pulling away from junctions I use it as it starts the bike moving then the pedal sensor takes over.

However, if you are in a low power level and are actually pedalling, if you press the thumb throttle the bike goes straight to full power. If you then let the throttle go, the Typhoon goes back to whatever power level is set on the LCD.

 

[EddiePJ]

In relation to hub drive motors, I like the torque sensor as fitted to the BH, over that of the system that's attached to the bottom bracket of the KTM. The reason for this is that with the system that KTM uses, might prevent any user from upgrading component parts, as it appears that the bottom bracket and pedal cranks are specific parts made by Shimano for KTM.
I like to be able to choose what I want component wise, and being held to one specific part, has potential to be hassle in years to come, when said parts are no longer made.

Both systems do have plus points to me in respect of off road use, in that when you get something muddy or rutty, you can pedal down extra hard, and trick the system into just giving you an extra amount of power, which is usually enough to get you through or past.

On a negative aspect of the system, a new bike user could potentially be caught out when they touch the pedal and the bike shoots forwards before they are ready. It is something that you don't even notice as you get used to a bike, but it is something that I've seen catch people out.

With the Bosch crank drive, the system appears to work very much more like a conventional bike. You feel as though you are in control, rather than possibly the bike, and it is the rider input that drives it forward (if that makes sense)
What I don't like about the system, is that it is a very vulnerable one in off road use.

When it comes to throttles, I have mixed feelings. I certainly don't see why someone shouldn't have one if they so choose, especially if they might not otherwise be able to ride. I guess that potentially on a commuter bike, it would also be a good selling point.
I wouldn't (currently) want one, as I enjoy putting the work in and somehow it just wouldn't seem right. It would also take the enjoyment away for me.
I know that I have mentioned this before, but I do have concerns about throttles being used at organised off road mtb events. Aside from dongles, this is the one aspect of e-bike use that is going to annoy the hell out of pedal only cyclists at these events, and will spell an end to e-mtb's being allowed. I'm afraid that for me, throttles should and need to be banned at these events.

I've also noticed that having a throttle fitted, seems almost be the norm and expected on bikes for the American market though, but why on earth does a bike such as the NEO race need one.

 

[mike killay]

Mike,I agree with everything you say,it is however now becoming more difficult to get e-bike manufacturers to fit full speed throttles.
However,with a speed sensor bike on max PAS setting you only have to turn the pedals slowly to get max power.
I sold a KudosTempo to an older lady who had previously used a lead acid Powacycle for many years,she was worried about the lack of full speed throttle(the Tempo has a 4 mph throttle for take off). She came back after a few days to say that because the bike was so much lighter and free wheeled easier she did not miss the throttle at all.
On my Kudos Secret bike I have started to use the throttle more,for easy take offs from standstill but I never use it once cruising ,even though it has a full speed throttle.
But I respect we all have different personal ways we use these bikes.
KudosDave

I get the impression that the Chinese will build whatever you ask for at the quality level you demand, and not just ebikes.
Is it only European manufacturers that will not fit throttles?[/