Torque or speed sensor - preferences?

[rippedupno1]

Iam definitely in the torque sensor camp having got 2 crank drive bikes as for me i wanted as near to unassisted cycling as possible. However i freely admit that i have been proved wrong on throttles. I purchased a Mosso 29er a couple of months ago with the bbs02 crank drive and it came fitted with a thumb throttle which i thought would be pretty much redundant for my type of riding but it has proved to be extremely useful in 2 main areas, firstly when riding along trying to maintain a constant speed and the road just rises for a short time instead of having to increase assist levels just a dab of the throttle for a couple of seconds does the trick ,so helpful because as we all know what we thought was a flat piece of road just isn't! Secondly and far more importantly is the benefit at right turn junctions having to cross the line of traffic. Having that surge of throttle to get you up to speed and out of harms way is a serious life saver. I reckon that i would use the throttle for maybe less than 1 minute out of an hours ride which doesn't sound like much but it has definitely improved both my enjoyment and safety of my rides, so much so i really miss it when i ride the bosch powered bs10. Cheers

 

[enndee]

sounds to me that some sort of exponential torque sensor would be best by that I mean that you put in a little effort you get little assist so you can manoeuvre easily put in more and you get a lot more so you can climb hills without knackering yourself.
I find the idea of changing the power assist using the LCD panel while riding in traffic rather fraught as it takes my attention off that big metal thing in front...

 

[Artstu]

sounds to me that some sort of exponential torque sensor would be best by that I mean that you put in a little effort you get little assist so you can manoeuvre easily put in more and you get a lot more so you can climb hills without knackering yourself.
I find the idea of changing the power assist using the LCD panel while riding in traffic rather fraught as it takes my attention off that big metal thing in front...

That'll be the Bosch then. Also look how easy it is to adjust the power level.

 

[shemozzle999]

You still need to take your eyes off the road to look at the display to see what level you are currently in and the new level you have selected.
Hands off a throttle is no power, half way is half speed and full on is full power no need to look down.

 

[Artstu]

What a complete faff having to use a throttle on a bicycle. They're poles apart. However I appreciate that some like the added complication required to try and match a much more sophisticated system with a crude set-up.

 

[mike killay]

What a complete faff having to use a throttle on a bicycle. They're poles apart. However I appreciate that some like the added complication required to try and match a much more sophisticated system with a crude set-up.

A throttle is not at all complicated. I have removed the pedal sensor on my bike and only use throttle.
Totally instinctive, use as much or as little as you like. My driveway is narrowed by a car and campervan. I can keep my feet on the ground and use the throttle to thread my way through.
On hills, no matter how much or little effort I put in, I can access as much electrical power as I want.
Frankly, I find the pedal sensor system complicated and it never delivers the right amount of power.

 

[Artstu]

A throttle is not at all complicated. I have removed the pedal sensor on my bike and only use throttle.

Like I said you're having to make a crude system work with an added complication.
If you've not ridden a Bosch, or perhaps an Impulse and Panasonic you won't appreciate how well a good pedelec is, so won't quite realise what you're missing.

That's not to dismiss those who prefer a bike with a throttle, who don't want an experience like riding a normal bicycle from their e-bike.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

What a complete faff having to use a throttle on a bicycle. They're poles apart. However I appreciate that some like the added complication required to try and match a much more sophisticated system with a crude set-up.

I don't know whether I've misunderstood what you mean, but pressing the thumb-lever on a throttle isn't exactly difficult. In fact it's a lot easier than pressing a pedal with your foot because it's much easier to maintain your balance when starting. At any time, you can press the lever, and away you go, which is much quicker and safer than pedalling to start. You don't need to use the throttle all the time. You can use it whenever you want to over-ride the pedal sensor system to instantly reduce or increase the power.

Personally, I can't see why anyone would not want one, apart from what's for me a ridiculous argument where people want their electric bike to be like a non-electric one, in which case they can take the battery out and leave it at home.

What's crude about a throttle? The further you move the lever, the faster you go. What's the difference with a Bosch-type system, where the harder you press the pedal, the more power you get. I don't know whether a throttle is crude, but you get much better control of speed and power, which you can use in any situation.

And before anybody says it, throttles don't make bicycles into mopeds. The rider has complete control of when and how much throttle to use. In all OEM bikes, the primary means of power control is through the PAS. Use of the throttle is optional.

 

[mike killay]

Like I said you're having to make a crude system work with an added complication.
If you've not ridden a Bosch, or perhaps an Impulse and Panasonic you won't appreciate how well a good pedelec is, so won't quite realise what you're missing.

That's not to dismiss those who prefer a bike with a throttle, who don't want an experience like riding a normal bicycle from their e-bike.

I do not see anything crude about a system that delivers as demanded.
I consider the Bosch and Panasonic needlessly complicated and that is only because they have to comply with laws that do not allow throttles (i.e. built in added complexity and therefore more to go wrong)
Bet that if Germany etc. did allow throttles, Bosch would never have developed their current system.

 

[Artstu]

I agree a throttle is handy, but when you need to use it all of the time because the system doesn't behave in the way you would like it then imo, it becomes a faff.
Those who want a pedelec that is like an ordinary bike, want it to behave in the same intuitive way a normal bike responds to the increase in effort you put in, BUT with the reduced effort the assistance allows. No one is ever saying they want their pedelec to require the same effort a normal bike requires for a given speed.
It is clear that people have issues with the pedal sensor systems, Mike having actually removed his.
Riding a Bosch bike requires no addition controls to be used. In that context a bike that requires the use of a throttle is imo crude.

Throttles are perfectly suited to cars and motorbikes of course, because they don't require pedalling.

 

[Artstu]

Bet that if Germany etc. did allow throttles, Bosch would never have developed their current system.

I doubt that very much. Have you ridden a Bosch equipped bike?

 

[trex]

I do not see anything crude about a system that delivers as demanded.
I consider the Bosch and Panasonic needlessly complicated and that is only because they have to comply with laws that do not allow throttles (i.e. built in added complexity and therefore more to go wrong)
Bet that if Germany etc. did allow throttles, Bosch would never have developed their current system.

The Bosch bikes do not have brake sensors and therefore rely on the torque sensor to detect braking and to replace the throttle. That's why they have to have clever software.

 

[mike killay]

I doubt that very much. Have you ridden a Bosch equipped bike?

No, I would like the opportunity.
But as you say, some people are primarily cyclists and appreciate something that feels like a 'magic' bike that flattens hills and head winds.
Others would have little appreciation of such a bike and also dislike the extra difficulty of not having a hand throttle in confined spaces.

 

[Artstu]

Summed up well. I'm a very reluctant pedelec rider, I wouldn't be riding one if I wasn't ill, I'd ditch one in a nanosecond if I could.

 

[mike killay]

Summed up well. I'm a very reluctant pedelec rider, I wouldn't be riding one if I wasn't ill, I'd ditch one in a nanosecond if I could.

For many that is the 'rub'
I am getting on in years and could not hope to pedal an ordinary bike, indeed walking more than half a mile is a strain on the old legs and an electric bike gives me the freedom I want (bit like a super-pavement scooter in fact)
That is why systems like Bosch that rely on rider input and at best only deliver 2.75 times rider input would not suit me at all.
I live at the bottom of a small hill. Both my Tonaro and Woosh folder will go up it at 7mph without pedalling.
Now when setting out, I pedal up it, but it is re-assuring to know that on the way back, any similar hills will hold no fears for me. The Tonaro of course will go up anything, albeit at 3-4 mph without pedalling.
That is the type of bike that I need, regardless of riding 'experience'.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Some of the early PAS systems are very crude. They only give you full power when you pedal. Some have a really daft algorithm, where the faster you pedal, the faster the motor spins. It sounds sort of logical, but if you try it, it's absolutely diabolical, so I can see why some people would want to dump their PAS and use only throttle. Most modern PAS systems have at least five levels of PAS, which gives the flexibility to satisfy most riders.

Summed up well. I'm a very reluctant pedelec rider, I wouldn't be riding one if I wasn't ill, I'd ditch one in a nanosecond if I could.

I get the picture now. I sincerely hope that you never become a reluctant throttle user like some people. I guess that's a fate that will fall on most of us eventually if we want to keep using our bikes.

 

[Artstu]

Mike I thought I'd need a throttle too, my first e-bike had one, but after a bit I realised it was more comfortable to soft pedal than just sit there.
The Bosch goes really well imo on soft pedalling, but other bikes go A LOT faster for low effort.

Luckily there is a choice of system, and most of us can find something we're happy with.

 

[Artstu]

I get the picture now. I sincerely hope that you never become a reluctant throttle user like some people. I guess that's a fate that will fall on most of us eventually if we want to keep using our bikes.

By rights I should be a throttle user right now. riding the bike is actually keeping me out of that situation.

Lets hope we can all avoid the need for a throttle while we're still able to get out.

 

[oldtom]

Most of Europe seems to manage perfectly well without a throttle on what is still essentially a bicycle so I really don't understand why some British folk feel they are close to essential.

The whole concept of EAPCs, (and there's a clue in the long version of that acronym!) is that we are permitted to ride BICYCLES by pedalling with electrical assistance, without the encumbrances involved in the motor vehicle sector.

If anyone has learned to ride a pushbike, then the closest form of EAPC in feel is the power delivery method found in Panasonic/Bosch/Yamaha/Daum(Impulse) to name the most common. Those who say they find a throttle useful for quick getaways must be, in my opinion, unfamiliar with these bikes as all of those are as quick off the mark as any pushbike, some indeed quicker.

Even the earliest Panasonic crank-drives responded instantly and eagerly to the slightest pedal input yet could be ridden easily without danger of surging or stalling at slow walking pace. That is not to say that some hub-driven bikes can't do those things too as I ride one which comes close. I tested all sorts of EAPCs when I first got the bug but I absolutely hated those bikes which only fed in power after a half-revolution of the pedals, (or more I seem to recall on something eminently forgettable).

Recently in Cambridge, I watched a chap on a rather heavy-looking but nondescript EAPC riding about three hundred yards along flat-as-a-pancake Regent St, before I lost sight of him. His feet never moved, so pedals to him were merely footrests and to all intents and purposes, he was riding a moped without complying with the requirements for one of those. Whether his machine was legal or otherwise, I really couldn't say but never mind the roadies - I felt like shouting 'Cheat!'

Hub drives like my Cytronex bike provide a quick ride but in a totally artificial way. Again, power from a standstill isn't available immediately, only coming in at a road speed of about 5 mph but then it's full power, necessitating quick pedalling and quick gear changes to maintain the momentum. Having said that, the bike is so light that it can be ridden easily without power so if the assist is reserved for hilly bits and into strong headwinds, then it makes sense.

In essence, I agree entirely with Artstu's view on these matters and cannot understand this thing about throttles unless their fans have never ridden good crank-drives with torque sensors. As for the bit some have mentioned previously in these discussions about using throttle to give one's legs a rest for a bit, I just stop if I'm tired and that's what I did on my pushbikes.

Tom

 

[Alan Quay]

Throttle saved my bacon a few months ago when crossing a fast B road. There's a bend one direction, and the brow of a hill the other, and I have no choice but to cross here. Just as I set off, my chain came off.

There are other times that throttle is very useful - when riding along side my boy for example, I want no assist at all.

Each to their own but I prefer to be able to control the amount of power manually, and constantly. That's not quite so easy with pedal/torque sensor.