Torq battery dilemma

[HarryB]

My Li-ion battery is at the end of the road (10 months old) - the journey in this morning was miserable with minimal use of throttle and cutting out even on the flat.

50 cycles are really struggling to get hold of stocks of the NiMH batteries from China and there are none coming over on the next shipment due in a couple of weeks. So we are looking at nearer 2 months but there is no guarantee. In fairness they are trying to get hold of batteries from another source and it must be frustrating to have £4000 of orders and not being able to deliver.

So what should I and people in a similar positions do? The choices are:

Buy another Li-ion and hope to get a year out of it. The newer batteries have a better BMS which will not so readily cut out but I am not sure if this will really extend the life that much. Expensive but I need transport and it would get me by.

Look for somebody to make up a 36V NiMH pack - Flecc has sourced a charger. This seems a difficult option and could work out expensive, especially if the cells turn out to be low quality or missmatched. It may even prove impossible to get hold of the cells as I notice, for example that Cellpack Solutions have no stocks of tagged D types.

What do you all think?

 

[flecc]

I can vouch for 50cycles efforts on this issue, it's causing them huge headaches in finding a solution.

There's always DIY.

Tagged high current NiMh cells can be bought from Batteryspace in the USA, and at the present very favourable exchange rate the cost would be about £135 plus P & P. The postage is costly though, $113 for the USPS Express service and $122 for the Expedite service. The total with expedite would be about £190/£200 at the current exchange rates, the same cost as a new battery.

The cells are mounted in six columns of five, so you'd need to solder the tags together alongside and fold them upwards onto the same voltage cell side so as to ensure an insulation breakdown wouldn't be a problem. Then each column would need a thin wrap, the six columns joined in formation (3 x 2) and bound, with the end interconnections made. The thermistor should be replaced in the hollow between two cell columns about one cell down from the top in intimate contact with a cell wall. The thermistor is bidirectional and is wired between neutral and the charge connector socket centre pin.

You'd need to buy a thermistor and the charger I've recommended uses a thermistor value with wide tolerance and that's alway a very safe bet with any cell type and the standard eZee charger also. The equivalent is Radiospares RS 151-237. The characteristics are R = 10k, B = 3914.

Since the recommended charger/discharger also has a maximum voltage cut-off circuit, the thermistor can be substituted by a normal 10 k resistor which doesn't need to be in thermal contact, though it's best to fit a thermistor eventually.

For those already having an eZee NiMh charger, a suitable type is a Murata component from Radiospares, part number 188-5256, R = 10k, B= 3380.

They could also try to get the type fitted into the original eZee NiMh battery instead. This is a Semitec AT-4, part number: 103AT4 Shape 2. If not available, 103AT4 Shape 1 will also work. The main specification is R = 10k, B = 3435. The supplier doesn't supply retail, but may send you a free sample if you phone and ask nicely:

Semitec UK. Phone: 01606 871680, NTC Thermistors
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[allotmenteer]

My Li-ion battery is at the end of the road (10 months old) - the journey in this morning was miserable with minimal use of throttle and cutting out even on the flat.

So what should I and people in a similar positions do? The choices are:

Buy another Li-ion and hope to get a year out of it. The newer batteries have a better BMS which will not so readily cut out but I am not sure if this will really extend the life that much. Expensive but I need transport and it would get me by.


What do you all think?

Even at the risk of having no usable battery I would not buy another Li-ion until I see that users on this forum are getting 2 years of good performance out of lithium. (So that time is at least 2 years away) The way I see it is that if you buy a lithium then you're only encouraging the supply of them. If suppliers get the message that they just can't shift them onto unsuspecting customers then the supply situation will change.

That said, lithium may be suitable for some.

How far is your commute? Have you considered SLAs as a temporary stopgap until Nimh arrive? AAs? Anything but lithium!

 

[flecc]

Harry

Have a look at the possibility of you recelling. If that's not for you, post as much here and I may have another solution for you.
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[fcurran]

May I suggest you contact Berni from Bikes and Batterys. He will be able to source a NiMh battery for you if you give him the spec and sizes required. His number is 01780 471010

Regards

Frank
Powabyke Ltd

 

[Tiberius]

I'm facing the same dilemma myself. Now I have actually rebuilt battery packs (they discontinued the ones for my cordless drill) so I'm not completely daunted by that. But what's really needed for that is a spare battery case.

Nick

 

[flecc]

It's the same eZee case Nick, Li-ion or NiMh.

The pack has to be created first, and takes hardly any time to wire into the case, using the input/output wires that were in the Li-ion, so there's no need for a second case.
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[Cyclezee]

My Li-ion battery is at the end of the road (10 months old) - the journey in this morning was miserable with minimal use of throttle and cutting out even on the flat.

50 cycles are really struggling to get hold of stocks of the NiMH batteries from China and there are none coming over on the next shipment due in a couple of weeks. So we are looking at nearer 2 months but there is no guarantee. In fairness they are trying to get hold of batteries from another source and it must be frustrating to have £4000 of orders and not being able to deliver.

So what should I and people in a similar positions do? The choices are:

Buy another Li-ion and hope to get a year out of it. The newer batteries have a better BMS which will not so readily cut out but I am not sure if this will really extend the life that much. Expensive but I need transport and it would get me by.

Look for somebody to make up a 36V NiMH pack - Flecc has sourced a charger. This seems a difficult option and could work out expensive, especially if the cells turn out to be low quality or missmatched. It may even prove impossible to get hold of the cells as I notice, for example that Cellpack Solutions have no stocks of tagged D types.

What do you all think?

Check your email HarryB.

John

 

[Tiberius]

It's the same eZee case Nick, Li-ion or NiMh.

The pack has to be created first, and takes hardly any time to wire into the case, using the input/output wires that were in the Li-ion, so there's no need for a second case.
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flecc,

that is ok if you have a completely shot battery to rebuild, but I want a second battery. I was wondering whether to get another Li Ion or a new NiMH. I'm being awkward, aren't I?

Nick

 

[flecc]

No you're not Nick, I just took it literally that you were in the same position as Harry with a complete dud.
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[Beeping-Sleauty]

option...?

whilst we're on the subject of batteries, has anyone any knowledge of these:

Portable NiMH Battery Bag: 39.6V 10Ah with Smart charger for E-Bike -- Runing faster / Longer - BAG-39V10Ah

at under 14 lbs, shouldn't be difficult to carry ? price seems about right, bit of a boost being 39v, or not ?

 

[flecc]

Poweriser is just another name for the Batteryspace company in my first reply in this thread.

The price is ok at the moment because the exchange rate on the dollar is so favourable to us temporarily, but I don't like these packs.

The 39.6 volt part is fine, an accepted small performance upgrade for many 36 volt e-bikes where their controllers accept the peak of about 45 volts quiescent when charged, not all do. I use that voltage on my T bike but have to discharge a touch for the controller to run.

My problem here is with the triple charger system with the three part cellpack. Their 12 volt chargers are rather cheap and nasty things which they couldn't sell separately, hence the inclusion in these packs, and it's a complication to have to deal with three chargers every time of charging.

They had a very bad episode with dud cells a year back and got a bad name on the internet for packs burning out due to poor quality control allowing though faulty cells which failed with disastrous consequences for the whole pack. It could be they feel the triple system is safer, but if so, I think that's misguided. Every indication is that the cells are ok these days, and Sav in this forum recelled successfully with a 24 volt set of their 10 Ah D cells.
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[Tiberius]

flecc,

I remember reading that you added a few cells (on the T bike?) to make a higher voltage pack. Is there room inside the eZee case for a bit extra? I have an idea coming on.

Nick

 

[flecc]

It's just possible to squeeze one cell in Nick, behind the charger socket and pinched end to end between the fuse holder and a battery screw connection post. Only just though.
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[Ian]

Having re-celled an Ezee battery I can say that space inside is very limited, the main body of the case has just enough room for the 6 vertical sticks of 5 cells with room for one more between the detents at the top.

The cells I used were originally tagged but the tags had to go as their thickness added up to about 6mm for the 5 high stack which was too high to fit.

 

[HarryB]

Thanks

Many thanks for all your replies/suggestions and to Aldby for the email. I am certainly competent enough to go down the DIY route and my other half has the electronics degree so at least she understands all the K values etc. Flecc what would be the third way I would certainly be interested even if a bit more difficult?

At the moment I have just come back from work exhausted as I am putting so much effort in to avoid the cut outs. I think I will go back to the tube until I can get a new battery. Looking at it like that it will cost me £120 a month so much as it pains me a Li-ion battery is the easiest solution. I am a terrible tinkerer though so will follow up the harder DIY way tomorrow.

 

[flecc]

What Ian has posted has worried me though Harry. I haven't tried recelling on of the standard eZee cases with tagged cells, and if there isn't enough room and the tags have to removed, that means pressure contact between cells only.

I know that Ian has succeeded in doing this with some difficulty, but I'm concerned about the reliability of the contact longer term. It's tricky, and I'm not keen on recommending it.

You asked me what that alternative was. I have one bike that I can use Li-ion on, the very efficient Q bike, so buying another Li-ion for that wouldn't concern me. What I had in mind was for you to order an NiMh, while I buy a Li-ion, but with delivery to you. You carry on with that pending the eventual arrival of your NiMh, then post the Li-ion to me. Doing that will cost you £9.35 extra for parcel post.

This won't cost me a cent for a very long time as it will go on a zero percent credit card, and I'm happy to do that as we are near enough neighbours living in the little village called London.
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[HarryB]

Flecc,

That is a very generous offer. What really concerns me it that I am such a heavy user - normally 20 miles 5 days a week and that really takes it out of a Li-ion battery. If the NiMH took 2 months to arrive I would take 1/5th of your battery's capacity (bearing in mind the last one only lasted 10 months). That I couldn't do. I have taken on board your worries about the lack of space in the case to put the tagged D cells - so I don't think this is an option. Let me have a think about it but I am leaning toward buying a Li-ion myself, oh dear.

 

[Ian]

Further to my last post about re-celling it's quite likely that cells from different manufacturers will vary slightly in size from the nominal D size, cells only 1mm shorter than mine would fit comfortably but cells 1mm taller would not fit at all. Unfortunately I didn't record the exact size of my cells, and as they came from a scrap bike the manufacturer is unknown. I would advise anyone thinking if re-celling to carefully measure the internal height of the widest part of the case and to check cell dimensions before buying to ensure that 5 can be accommodated, including tags and joining wires if desired.

For anyone in no hurry by far the easiest, and quite possibly cheapest solution is to simply order a new Ezee battery, my reason for re-celling was simply that I already had the cells.

 

[flecc]

That doesn't worry me Harry, I'd expect it to take that long or more anyway, hence the offer. It would come back to me as the weather started to warm, and that, combined with the Q bike efficiency would mean I got good use from it as well. I do in fact want an additional eZee battery case at some point as one of mine arrived cracked through, so there'd be an additional gain for me eventually anyway.

So up to you, if it's convenient I'm happy to go ahead and let the Halifax shoulder the cost for a year. They keep singing about how much they want to help us.

P.S. If you still are concerned at my losing value, you could include a cheque with the returned battery for say £10 a month used, thus paying for your part of the usage as you normally do anyway, though I'm not worried about that extra.
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