TONIGHT 9pm: - E-Bikes: The Battle for Our Streets - Panorama

[Hoppy33]

[snip]

So essentially all you need to do to become 'legal' is have pedals, configure controller to 4mph max throttle assist, restrict top assistance speed to 15.5mph and have a hub that was 'rated' by the 'factory' stating it's 250W...?

Nuts..

That’s a very handy summary, confirmed here by those who know. Thanks!

Just for clarity, I also believe that it’s perfectly legal to have a throttle delivering max power above 4mph, provided the pedals are turning. After all, in this respect a throttle is no different to using the PAS buttons, or pushing harder on a torque sensor for that matter. I hope that’s true!

In which case, my own e-bike therefore complies with UK law. It’s a RadRunner-Plus with hub-motor, EU/UK spec with a 250w compliance sticker from the manufacturer. I have also fitted an EggRider that can be configured in any number of either legal or illegal ways, including what is called ‘Rad mode’ which mimics the rather well-considered power characteristics of the standard Rad bike, including throttle cut-off at 4mph but with full throttle available above that speed while the pedals are turning. I have power capped at 19A (912w) so I am not short of hill-climbing torque but speed is also limited to the legal max of 15.5mph. That’s more than enough for the footpaths and cycleways I share with other bikes, pedestrians and prams and dogs.

In practice, this is a very good set-up for me, and I suspect many others. I have all the power and speed I need, plus a throttle that is, in effect, pretty much available full-time. It is very easy to use the throttle for a safe and elegant launch (and it’s perfect for slow-speed manoeuvring) and then to be underway and on the pedals before the 4mph cut-off.

BTW, it is not possible to make any changes to the EggRider ‘on the fly’ (in order to comply with the law if you’re stopped). That can only be done by hooking up to the BlueTooth app and diving in to the menus.

 

[matthewslack]

I finally got round to actually watching the program, and I wasn't overly offended by it.

I don't find it difficult to understand why people get upset by the four issues that stand out as being behind virtually all the negativity:

At the risk of reopening the flood gates, people do not understand that 250W does not mean 250W in the way they expect;

People are not accepting of the 25km/h assistance speed limits being abused, or being so easy to bypass;

People cannot stand the dangerous and disrespectful minority of riders, and are happy to tar us all with the same brush;

People easily perceive a throttle controlled EAPC as an electric motorbike;

and when all of the above is combined like the footage shown, they are outraged.

I can understand why, and I can only try to use my own riding as a counter argument. We can all do our bit.

 

[Woosh]

I was annoyed by the program suggestion that illegal bikes can be bought on cycle to work scheme. It's not.

 

[AndyBike]

When a gas engineer saw my cats, he said "I didn't know it was legal to keep panthers". Had to reassure him they were just domestic cats. Half Siamese but for some reason jet black. I don't know what the other half was. I miss them a lot. I'd upload photos but I can't bear to look at them, even though they died a few years ago. I'd end up thinking about them again.

Our scabby tabby. Weight = Slightly over 1 stone

 

[nigelbb]

I was annoyed by the program suggestion that illegal bikes can be bought on cycle to work scheme. It's not.

I am sure that there must be people buying a legal bike through the cycle to work scheme then turning it into an illegal bike by hacking the software to increase the top assistance speed. It's apparently very easy to do on some pedelecs.

 

[lenny]

LG’s air purifying cat bed is one of the weirdest gadgets from CES

LG’s air purifying cat bed is one of the weirdest gadgets from CES

Need an air purifier that doubles as a cat bed? Us neither, but LG has unveiled one anyway at this year's CES.

www.trustedreviews.com

 

[Hoppy33]

I finally got round to actually watching the program, and I wasn't overly offended by it.

I don't find it difficult to understand why people get upset by the four issues that stand out as being behind virtually all the negativity:

At the risk of reopening the flood gates, people do not understand that 250W does not mean 250W in the way they expect;

People are not accepting of the 25km/h assistance speed limits being abused, or being so easy to bypass;

People cannot stand the dangerous and disrespectful minority of riders, and are happy to tar us all with the same brush;

People easily perceive a throttle controlled EAPC as an electric motorbike;

and when all of the above is combined like the footage shown, they are outraged.

I can understand why, and I can only try to use my own riding as a counter argument. We can all do our bit.

I kind of agree and maybe we should cut Adrian Chiles a bit of slack. He is definitely on our side and I for one am grateful that he didn’t mention battery fires!

So let’s be honest, we definitely have a problem and the programme accurately reflected the increasingly negative public perception of ebikes. For whatever reason, everyone is confused about the legal definitions. Eg, plenty of folks on here for a start and the police are seemingly in the same boat as they are either reluctant or unable to enforce existing laws. Ditto e-scooters. And ask any bike shop what the real regulations are and there’s a good chance they’ll get it wrong too. I’ve been told multiple times that ‘throttles are illegal’ full stop - strangely enough that always comes from sales people stocking only expensive mid-motor ebikes that do not have throttles...

But there is one major and glaringly obvious factor at play here - the reckless delivery riders who tear up and down our high streets and race along footpaths and cycleways. They are a universal menace. We know who they are and where they work. It’s the ugly side of the gig economy. Fix that and a big part of the problem will go away.

 

[Hoppy33]

Hypothesis: delivery riders are a problem, and so are battery fires.

Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone simply by fitting all batteries with ‘potted cells’. Potted cells are cheap and easy to manufacture and they’re commonly used in many automative applications but so far, I believe only Rad Power Bikes have introduced them for ebikes (marketed as SafeShield).

Potted cells are encased in a silicon-based* material which makes them highly resistant to shock and physical damage. They also reduce the likelihood of fire, and help to contain fire if the worst should happen.

Plus, there is another beneficial side effect - potted cells are very difficult to remove, maybe even impossible without damage. Battery theft is on the rise, largely because they’re easy to steal, and they can be readily sold to backstreet operators who pull them apart, extract the valuable cells and cobble multiple stolen batteries together into those huge and dangerous things used by delivery riders.

*Edit: correction - not potted in silicon but a fire-retardant resin

 

[guerney]

Lobbyists of Justeat etc. will be agitated by crackdowns. Fast delivery dudes risking the lives and limbs of themselves and others serve their interests - they take 25% or more from every rider's income.

 

[Woosh]

Battery cells are already potted.

Hypothesis: delivery riders are a problem, and so are battery fires.

Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone simply by fitting all batteries with ‘potted cells’. Potted cells are cheap and easy to manufacture and they’re commonly used in many automative applications but so far, I believe only Rad Power Bikes have introduced them for ebikes (marketed as SafeShield).

Potted cells are encased in a silicon-based material which makes them highly resistant to shock and physical damage. They also reduce the likelihood of fire, and help to contain fire if the worst should happen.

Plus, there is another beneficial side effect - potted cells are very difficult to remove, maybe even impossible without damage. Battery theft is on the rise, largely because they’re easy to steal, and they can be readily sold to backstreet operators who pull them apart, extract the valuable cells and cobble multiple stolen batteries together into those huge and dangerous things used by delivery riders.

 

[Woosh]

Lobbyists of Justeat etc. will be agitated by crackdowns. Fast delivery dudes risking the lives and limbs of themselves and others serve their interests - they take 25% or more from every rider's income.

You would want to force them to have insurance. They will then be kept on the straight and narrow by the insurers.

 

[StuartsProjects]

It's apparently very easy to do on some pedelecs.

And apparently there are Internet forums where you can get readily get technical advice on how to turn a 'legal' pedelec into an 'illegal' one.

 

[Ghost1951]

But there is one major and glaringly obvious factor at play here - the reckless delivery riders who tear up and down our high streets and race along footpaths and cycleways. They are a universal menace. We know who they are and where they work. It’s the ugly side of the gig economy. Fix that and a big part of the problem will go away.

They are an absolute menace.

I was narrowly missed when walking on a pedestrian / cycle path by a Deliveroo e-motorbike tearing along at about 25 miles an hour. He passed me with about a foot to spare before direct contact.

But it is cloud cuckoo land expecting a consistent police approach to clearing these things off the streets. They don't pursue a huge amount of crime - even such as burglary.

I have sometimes called 111 to report proper motorcycles being driven by youths in hoodies - no helmet - no number plates - driving dangerously on the roads. They do nothing. I once reported seeing a pair of such bikes riding alongside a stolen bike which two passengers were pushing withe their feet. They had the stolen bike sandwiched between them and the passengers had one foot extended to the rear foot pegs on the prize they had snatched. Not one had a helmet. Result? A team of police cars intercepted them and put them in handcuffs? Of course not. Absolutely nothing. Welcome to Outlaw Hideout UK.

 

[esuark]

Walking home after dropping my granddaughter off home after school I could see a couple of hundred yards in front that the police had pulled over a car driver. I was passed by a boy on an electric scooter who proceeded to pass by the police ahead who completely ignored him. We all know the likelihood of getting away with offenses is extremely high and increasingly to some it is day to day way of life with no shame attached, quite the opposite.

 

[Hoppy33]

Battery cells are already potted.

For ebikes? Not like these Rad SafeShield batteries https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/replacement-parts/products/safe-shield-advanced-external-battery?variant=40295894417504

 

[Woosh]

For ebikes? Not like these Rad SafeShield batteries https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/replacement-parts/products/safe-shield-advanced-external-battery?variant=40295894417504

Mine have been potted for nearly 10 years. The cell packs are not repairable. You can replace fuses and connectors but that's about all you can do. I don't even replace the BMS. I know it's wasteful but the risk is real until batteries are made with fireproofing in place.

 

[danielrlee]

Grin began experimenting with potting their batteries around 10 years ago and made them available commercially around 8 years ago, IIRC:

Potting Batteries, Thoughts and Experiments

Background. Last year we had a number of custom batteries made up in a flat 10s X 1p cell layout arrangement for 2 reasons. #1 is so that we'd have convenient low profile 18650 batteries for mounting on powered skateboard projects (see here...

endless-sphere.com

 

[saneagle]

Grin began experimenting with potting their batteries around 10 years ago and made them available commercially around 8 years ago, IIRC:

Potting Batteries, Thoughts and Experiments

Background. Last year we had a number of custom batteries made up in a flat 10s X 1p cell layout arrangement for 2 reasons. #1 is so that we'd have convenient low profile 18650 batteries for mounting on powered skateboard projects (see here...

endless-sphere.com

It keeps the heat in, which is bad for the cells if you run them hard, and could even make them catch fire. When you build a battery yourself, you have to use cell-holders that leave gaps around them to let the heat out.

 

[Hoppy33]

Mine have been potted for nearly 10 years. The cell packs are not repairable. You can replace fuses and connectors but that's about all you can do. I don't even replace the BMS. I know it's wasteful but the risk is real until batteries are made with fireproofing in place.

That’s great news! Why are you not shouting this from the rooftops?

But what about the major players - Bosch, Giant, Specialized, Gazelle etc? As far as I can establish, none of the mainstream brands has adopted potting battery cells, with the notable exception of Rad Power Bikes.

 

[Woosh]

But what about the major players - Bosch, Giant, Specialized, Gazelle etc? As far as I can establish, none of the mainstream brands has adopted potting battery cells, with the notable exception of Rad Power Bikes.

Theirs are even more safety conscious. If the system recognises symptoms of an impending fault, your battery won't start nor accept charging. I hope we'll get solid state batteries soon for ebikes. Solid state battery cells don't have electrolyte so do not burn.