The great british e-bike scam

jazper53

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 20, 2012
890
18
Brighton
Yes I know jazper, but the subsidies have actually escalated to ludicrous proportions since then.......and it certainly isnt working to keep beef cheaper now is it.

But what is probably more to the point than farmers getting rich on subsidies ( they do, after all work hard )...just how did these bl**** robbing b****** supermarkets GET so powerful.......
of course what we should all be doing is voting with our feet and supporting small local businesses more, which brings us back full circle to small retail businesses, albeit selling food now not e-bikes, interesting how these threads veer around. :D


Lynda :)
I agree the EEC subsidies have been abused by agriculture investment companies that own vast tracts of agriculture land with one reason only to milk the EEC subsidies at the expense of the smaller farming enterprises.
 
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Cyclezee

Guest
I accept this, but again the example I chose was an ebike only business that only (at the moment) sells ebike parts and kits, not complete bikes. Grin Cyclery in Canada have been doing OK and have grown their business considerably over the past few years, despite selling at prices that are well below the equivalent prices from one or two UK suppliers.

Despite all I've read in defence of UK pricing policies, I cannot understand why a small, dedicated ebike business, operating in a fairly expensive large city in Canada, should be any different to a similar business selling similar products (from the same sources) here in the UK. After all, they have premises, taxes, salaries, duty, technical support costs and all the other myriad costs that afflict a small business, just as any similar UK small business would have.
eZee 26" front wheel conversion kit + eZee 37v 14Ah battery + rear rack US$50/£31.55 + delivery to a Vancouver zip code US$22.70/£14.33.

Total from Grin Cyclery US$1592.70/£1005.20

eZee 26" front wheel conversion kit + eZee 37v 14Ah battery + rear rack and including delivery within the UK.

Total from Cyclezee £995

P.S. coincidentally and of no particular relevance, my father was a farmer and I was brought up on a farm.
 
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funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
I agree the EEC subsidies have been abused by agriculture investment companies that own vast tracts of agriculture land with one reason only to milk the EEC subsidies at the expense of the small farming enterprises.
Yes, but the small farming enterprises have certainly benefited very well too.....I know, we were one of them.
Mind you, us farming a small cumbrian mixed farm didnt benefit us quite as well as it did my sisters family with a very large arable/beef farm......but hey, I never wanted their helicopter or yacht anyway.....I was quite happy with my camper van in those days :D :D

Lynda :)
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
eZee 26" front wheel conversion kit + eZee 37v 14Ah battery + rear rack US$50/£31.55 + delivery to a Vancouver zip code US$22.70/£14.33.

Total from Grin Cyclery US$1592.70/£1005.20

eZee 26" front wheel conversion kit + eZee 37v 14Ah battery + rear rack and including delivery within the UK.

Total from Cyclezee £995

P.S. coincidentally and of no particular relevance, my father was a farmer and I was brought up on a farm.
Excellent pricing and value for money and good to get us back on track.....didnt I see a post from flecc earlier today saying that he thought you sold ezee bikes cheaper than anywhere in the world ......or was I imagining it ?

And coincidentally and of no particular relevance lol.....you being brought up on a Cumbrian farm will be able to confirm those lovely farming subsidies too ;)

Lynda :)
 

Scimitar

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 31, 2010
1,772
40
Ireland
Despite all I've read in defence of UK pricing policies, I cannot understand why a small, dedicated ebike business, operating in a fairly expensive large city in Canada, should be any different to a similar business selling similar products (from the same sources) here in the UK. After all, they have premises, taxes, salaries, duty, technical support costs and all the other myriad costs that afflict a small business, just as any similar UK small business would have.
The population of Canada is 35 million.
The population of the UK is?
Grin Cyclery are a niche supplier to a much larger niche, in absolute terms.
 
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Cyclezee

Guest
Yes, but the small farming enterprises have certainly benefited very well too.....I know, we were one of them.
Mind you, us farming a small cumbrian mixed farm didnt benefit us quite as well as it did my sisters family with a very large arable/beef farm......but hey, I never wanted their helicopter or yacht anyway.....I was quite happy with my camper van in those days :D :D

Lynda :)
Cor you had it good Lynda:rolleyes: on our Cumbrian mixed farm we had a clapped out split screen Morris Minor van with no first or reverse gear and bald tyres, we could only dream about luxuries like a camper van.

Mind you at six years old, driving that thing up wet muddy fields, you soon learn't all about traction.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
Tillson, What did you mean by 'I know where this is all heading in the long term and it's rather frightening'?
Dave
Kudoscycles
It gives me an uneasy feeling when I see trade which should remain within the UK fall to foreign competitors and I wonder where it will all end in the long term. We have lost our car, energy, telecoms, water and huge chunks of our retail industry to foreign companies and I think that this trend will continue. This can't be a good thing.

I think the rot started in the 1980s when the all conquering Lord Sugar of AMSTRAD was defeated by his sworn enemy, the evil Professor Insulin. Since then, we have gradually seen erosion of all our manufacturing and innovation capability.
 

Scimitar

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 31, 2010
1,772
40
Ireland
Food has always been different super markets do not work on 100% mark ups sometimes more like 4-5%
I used to believe that rubbish, too.
It's all propaganda put out by the supermarkets, and it's been doing the rounds for decades. A right load of cobbles.
 
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Cyclezee

Guest
The population of Canada is 35 million.
The population of the UK is?
Grin Cyclery are a niche supplier to a much larger niche, in absolute terms.
US population 311 million, as a result of NAFTA, Grin Cyclery has a huge market on it's doorstep.
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
Cor you had it good Lynda:rolleyes: on our Cumbrian mixed farm we had a clapped out split screen Morris Minor van with no first or reverse gear and bald tyres, we could only dream about luxuries like a camper van.

Mind you at six years old, driving that thing up wet muddy fields, you soon learn't all about traction.
Believe me my camper van then was a long way from my current one.

It was a converted Ford Transit with elevating roof that I had re sprayed bright yellow then did my goat trailer to match.....quite a sight on the motorways as I headed off to shows like Goat'82 at the NEC.....aaah....those were the days, mind you, I think I had more fun at the bike show at the NEC not that long ago.....but then I have a much more comfortable 'camper van' now..... :D

Lynda :)
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. In the UK, the retail sector (in pretty much any product area) has got very used to having a high mark up. I understand that retailers have costs, too, but most take few risks when compared to manufacturers and suppliers, and yet still take more profit per item sold.

Somehow we've developed a culture where retail calls the shots and suppliers and manufacturers get squeezed and controlled by them. If anyone doubts this then look at the profits that supermarkets make relative to the profits farmers make.................
Jeremy....in some respects I agree with your analysis but its all gone horribly wrong for some elements of the supply chain and that is why we have such big problems we have now. Manufacturing in this country is only for the brave,some would say foolish-they have so many regulations,health and safety considerations,unfair dismissal worries,overheads etc that it is almost impossible to make a profit,the risk reward ratio is just not acceptable.
The high street doesn't have a high mark up it has a massive one in the multis...dresses from Asia come in at less than £2,sell for £39.50 or high quality cost less than £5,sell for £99.50. But they need those massive margins to make it work,to cover the massive rates and rents....in fact the cost of the product is often a minor part of the costings. Governments and landlords have realised that this is a wonderful tax,rent and rates pool to be milked....but its all gone wrong because we are not buying enough of these clothes and online sellers have pulled the fat out of the margins. Unless landlords and governments change the milking the high street is finished,to be replaced by charity shops(no rates),coffee shops(awesome mark up) and hairdressers(infinite mark up),we know that is not going to change as long as governments are struggling with financing public sector pensions and the deficit.
Retailers are not calling the shots,big distributors are currently calling the shots-they sit between asian manufacturers and the high street and/or the internet sellers....companies such as Apple effectively control the middle of the supply chain and as we know can move their profits to tax friendly locations,this gives them an unfair advantage and government is not clever enough to stop that.
How do I know this because the motorsport retail industry has over 10 years been reduced from over 100 small retail shops to now only a few big distributors,all of which are located on industrial estates,they are all 'click and mortar' companies and are thriving...the cycle industry is going the same way with companies such as Wiggle and Chain Reaction the success stories,remote from the high street.
If the volumes rise in the ebike industry I can see that going the same way,with a small number of large distributors.
Dave
Kudoscycles
 

SRS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 30, 2012
848
349
South Coast
Supermarkets aside....they are a whole different ball game......to say that retailers take few risks is just not right......just try discussing that with most small retailers struggling to keep going with rising rates, utility bills, N.I., staff problems, financing their stock, unresponsive banks etc etc.......they deserve our support not slagging them off for trying to make a profit in this hard economic climate, just remember a 100% markup doesnt go straight in their pockets you know....otherwise we would ALL be setting up retail shops.

I think most small retailers would fall over laughing at the idea that they are 'calling all the shots' ........:rolleyes:

Lynda :)
Lynda, I'm singing from the same sheet as you.

I'm sat here, getting more and more wound up at some of the responses from various members.

Sure everyone has and is entitled to post their views.

I would suggest that those who fail to understand this so called RIP of Britian culture should start their own retail business.

Slagging off retailers as being greedy etc etc.

Hmm! start your own business and find out the facts.
 
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Cyclezee

Guest
Excellent pricing and value for money and good to get us back on track.....didnt I see a post from flecc earlier today saying that he thought you sold ezee bikes cheaper than anywhere in the world ......or was I imagining it ?
Lynda :)
Ah, you saw that too, one minute it was there then it is disappeared:eek:
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Tip of the iceberg Dave

And god forbid you employ staff with the slings and arrows that are involved / have a repairing lease / turn on the lights / heat the premises / bank charges / pay your self :rolleyes: / accountant fees / trade association fees

These things and many many more that all demand slices of your pie before you even make it.
... and it's the knock-on of all these highly taxed inputs to business operations consumers are fed up having built in to every flipping thing they go out and buy. It took years for the penny to finally drop that aside from 17.5 - 20% VAT, more than 50% of what remained of what I was paying for in an item bought was resellers' grocery bills and mortgage repayments, and a multitude of taxes on their business inputs (through employment taxes, taxes on fuel etc etc). For the vast majority of items I buy nowadays, I don't need or want a showroom or salesman. A built bike with demonstrators is different as there is added value there, but for parts purchases I want at as low a price as I can get.

It's gone even further with stuff like specialist clothes, shoes etc. Used to always go to shops but now you can get stuff delivered at well below showroom prices (and return it for free on a grand scale if it isn't right after having a sensible time to make your mind up) I am converted. Especially when the local shops you go to never have stock in to try in your size and only want to order in for you if you're committed to buying ... all advantages I might have paid for in the past have evaporated and I'm actually worse off feeling obliged to hand over money for the 'favour' they have done me using their rationed purchasing allocation to get my stuff in.

Some on here seem to advocate that I should hand the UK retailer the extra £142 as some sort of benevolent act based on the premiss that UK retailers only have access to a very small market. The thinking then being that when the retailer has made enough money, he or she will then reciprocate the kindness shown from the UK customer by only charging them the same as the Germans do for the same goods.
Just go for it. I buy all my tyres from Germany because the cost is almost invariably lower than in UK even after paying high postage markups. Plus the stuff arrives often faster than Parcelforce stuff sent from a UK address :confused: In this case, a battery is a battery. You take some risk that if it's faulty it'll be more expensive to return but if you buy a reasonable % of stuff in from abroad you basically self-insure that out with the cost savings.

In fairness it's not a level playing field. The German ebay supplier often has this as a sideline to his main domestic business as I was illustrating above, or doesn't have any other business having costs of maintenance.

Delivering very low prices for anything via ebay is easy.
.... and UK suppliers can sell via e-bay just as easily - if they want to. Just set up a parallel low cost sales and distribution line. Prime sort of example - pair of cleats off eBay £9 delivered to your door 1st class mail. Cost in your local shop £17 and a trip into town to get them. I know why but it still can't convince me to spend double on a basic item. For what they are, even £9 is a bit more than they should be - probably cost about 20p each to make.

With a price disparity of the magnitude that I have illustrated, the simple truth is that people are going to go for the cheaper option and buy direct from Germany. In the present climate, personal finances are being hammered from all directions and that means passing some of the pain on to others.
Of course. It would be pretty daft not to. Some people are frightened of ordering from foreign suppliers but touch wood nearly all my experiences of importing small orders have been problem-free. Most of the problems I have had have been with UK suppliers, but that's likely because I don't take so much care checking them out first.

I fully agree, it makes little sense to buy at much higher prices when there is no material gain from doing so.

I can't be very specific in defence of the UK supplier in this instance, though it appears they have sunk income into expanding their business with improved showroom and warehousing facilities and a second outlet in the London area.
Exactly. Something the buyer of a battery shouldn't be expected to have to be funding. Just as expansion of infrastructure in the energy and railway networks after profits have been stripped for years and investment has been woefully inadequate is not something consumers should be expected to cash-finance through constant price hikes :mad:

....just try discussing that with most small retailers struggling to keep going with rising rates, utility bills, N.I., staff problems, financing their stock, unresponsive banks etc etc.......
We all have our problems. Those issues don't just affect retailers. It's called a free market and this is where it has ultimately all led.

Cost of living in Britain is absolutely scandalous when you look at what you get (or don't get) for it and everyone is scrabbling to try to keep up with an increasingly unsustainable set of expectations.The sheer numbers (£) needed to sustain let alone improve quality of life long term are out of control - and I would hazard unsustainable.... younger generations' prospects of a retirement and decent pension are little more than pipe dreams. And for all the monumental amounts of tax we pay, one bit of cold weather and the rubbish still hasn't been picked up from Sunday. Hmmmm .....

If those with surplus are happy to keep the gravy train flowing and feel virtuous in doing so I can understand that. However, the existence of a free market for imports is a lifeline for others to get themselves things they otherwise would have no option but to do without and for that I definitely cannot point any fingers at either.

Personally, if price differentials are small or convenience is a priority I'll happily buy local. When it's 30-50% or more cheaper elsewhere on a large purchase, I'm buying elsewhere. Simples.
 
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Cyclezee

Guest
And coincidentally and of no particular relevance lol.....you being brought up on a Cumbrian farm will be able to confirm those lovely farming subsidies too ;)

Lynda :)
The subsidies seemed to mysteriously disappear....into the till of the Agricultural Hotel in Penrith on a Tuesday afternoon. Kind of spooky how today the Electric Cycle Centre is right next door to that renowned hostelry.

It's small world Lynda.....but I wouldn't like to paint it:p
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
Ah, you saw that too, one minute it was there then it is disappeared:eek:
Ah, I thought I wasnt imagining it, very 'strange' things happen on this forum sometimes...has it totally gone....not just emigrated to another thread for some reason best known to itself ? :confused:

Lynda :)
 
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Cyclezee

Guest
Ah, I thought I wasnt imagining it, very 'strange' things happen on this forum sometimes...has it totally gone....not just emigrated to another thread for some reason best known to itself ? :confused:

Lynda :)
Maybe it was strange trick of the enigma that is the Fleccmeister:eek:
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
The subsidies seemed to mysteriously disappear....into the till of the Agricultural Hotel in Penrith on a Tuesday afternoon. Kind of spooky how today the Electric Cycle Centre is right next door to that renowned hostelry.

It's small world Lynda.....but I wouldn't like to paint it:p

At least your dear dad was recycling it into another local business......:)

Oh yes...it certainly IS a small world..... however, I DO want to paint it....RED ! :p

Lynda :)
 

SRS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 30, 2012
848
349
South Coast
If those with surplus are happy to keep the gravy train flowing and feel virtuous in doing so I can understand that. However, the existence of a free market for imports is a lifeline for others to get themselves things they otherwise would have no option but to do without and for that I definitely cannot point any fingers at either.

Personally, if price differentials are small or convenience is a priority I'll happily buy local. When it's 30-50% or more cheaper elsewhere on a large purchase, I'm buying elsewhere. Simples.
103Alex1, that's the Dunkirk Spirit