The great british e-bike scam

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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In fairness it's not a level playing field. The German ebay supplier often has this as a sideline to his main domestic business as I was illustrating above, or doesn't have any other business having costs of maintenance.

The UK supplier here is solely dependent on their e-bike related sales to support them, their premises and their after sales service year round.

Delivering very low prices for anything via ebay is easy.
With a price disparity of the magnitude that I have illustrated, the simple truth is that people are going to go for the cheaper option and buy direct from Germany. In the present climate, personal finances are being hammered from all directions and that means passing some of the pain on to others.

If the differential was £50 I'd buy in the UK, but £150 is too much. I know where this is all heading in the long term and it's rather frightening.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
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www.kudoscycles.com
With a price disparity of the magnitude that I have illustrated, the simple truth is that people are going to go for the cheaper option and buy direct from Germany. In the present climate, personal finances are being hammered from all directions and that means passing some of the pain on to others.

If the differential was £50 I'd buy in the UK, but £150 is too much. I know where this is all heading in the long term and it's rather frightening.
Tillson,I absolutely agree. In your position I would seek the cheapest way of replacing my battery and still think that £383.00 is a ridiculously high price to pay for an 8Ah battery,£500 plus is clearly a ripoff...the point I was making was that is not necessarily the fault of the UK retailer,although it is looking that some dealers do look towards future battery sales for ongoing profits.
The life of LifePo4(Lithium Iron Phosphate) batterys is such that we would go very hungry at Kudos if we looked towards replacement LifePo4 for our income.
What did you mean by 'I know where this is all heading in the long term and it's rather frightening'?
Dave
Kudoscycles
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,342
30,694
With a price disparity of the magnitude that I have illustrated, the simple truth is that people are going to go for the cheaper option and buy direct from Germany. In the present climate, personal finances are being hammered from all directions and that means passing some of the pain on to others.

If the differential was £50 I'd buy in the UK, but £150 is too much. I know where this is all heading in the long term and it's rather frightening.
I fully agree, it makes little sense to buy at much higher prices when there is no material gain from doing so.

I can't be very specific in defence of the UK supplier in this instance, though it appears they have sunk income into expanding their business with improved showroom and warehousing facilities and a second outlet in the London area.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,342
30,694
I accept this, but again the example I chose was an ebike only business that only (at the moment) sells ebike parts and kits, not complete bikes. Grin Cyclery in Canada have been doing OK and have grown their business considerably over the past few years, despite selling at prices that are well below the equivalent prices from one or two UK suppliers.

Despite all I've read in defence of UK pricing policies, I cannot understand why a small, dedicated ebike business, operating in a fairly expensive large city in Canada, should be any different to a similar business selling similar products (from the same sources) here in the UK. After all, they have premises, taxes, salaries, duty, technical support costs and all the other myriad costs that afflict a small business, just as any similar UK small business would have.
In many cases it seems the discrepancy isn't explainable, but it can be to a degree in some. For example, Tillson's example used a supplier who is confined to the limited UK market agency sales, while Justin's business has been trading worldwide for a long time now so operates in a far larger market.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
In fairness it's not a level playing field. The German ebay supplier often has this as a sideline to his main domestic business as I was illustrating above, or doesn't have any other business having costs of maintenance.

The UK supplier here is solely dependent on their e-bike related sales to support them, their premises and their after sales service year round.

Delivering very low prices for anything via ebay is easy.
A bit of research reveals that the German seller has retail premises selling bikes and providing a maintenance service. They just happen to have an eBay outlet in exactly the same as UK retailers are free to do.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,342
30,694
A bit of research reveals that the German seller has retail premises selling bikes and providing a maintenance service. They just happen to have an eBay outlet in exactly the same as UK retailers are free to do.
Yes, I'd checked this one out some while ago, but 50cycles cannot do that. They are restricted to the UK only for their Kalkhoff sales, something that showed when they had to cease selling to the USA when that region was allocated and Kalkhoff supplied internally there.
 

hech

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 29, 2011
352
27
argyll
I used to build furniture for a living and I remember when just starting out retailers were asking for a 100%+ markup on my wares which I thought a bit steep. I had a workshop to run and tools and materials to pay for as well as designing and building the pieces. The retailer had a suit to put on and a lightbulb to display my furnishings and often didn't even p[ay for my stock until it had sold. I have long since left the business but never quite got over my dislike for retailers.
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
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South Shields, Tyne & Wear
I used to build furniture for a living and I remember when just starting out retailers were asking for a 100%+ markup on my wares which I thought a bit steep. I had a workshop to run and tools and materials to pay for as well as designing and building the pieces. The retailer had a suit to put on and a lightbulb to display my furnishings and often didn't even p[ay for my stock until it had sold. I have long since left the business but never quite got over my dislike for retailers.

With all due respect Hech that is a very unfair attitude towards retailers.

To say all his overheads consisted of donning a suit and switching on a light is clearly not right and I am sure you know it.

I have been a retailer and am now a supplier so I can see both sides of the coin very clearly.

My advice when selling goods onto a retailer is work out the price you are happy with and let the retailer get on with his job of selling them.

As long as he sets his % level correctly you will both be happy.

I have a retailer who is making much more than me from the product I supply, but I am happy with my price, they are happy with theirs because they are selling well....we are both happy.....to each their own.
I far prefer being a supplier now rather than the retailer with all the headaches, risk and stress involved with retailing......including huge overheads........they are very welcome to their 100+% mark up as far as I am concerned.

Lynda :)
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I used to build furniture for a living and I remember when just starting out retailers were asking for a 100%+ markup on my wares which I thought a bit steep. I had a workshop to run and tools and materials to pay for as well as designing and building the pieces. The retailer had a suit to put on and a lightbulb to display my furnishings and often didn't even p[ay for my stock until it had sold. I have long since left the business but never quite got over my dislike for retailers.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. In the UK, the retail sector (in pretty much any product area) has got very used to having a high mark up. I understand that retailers have costs, too, but most take few risks when compared to manufacturers and suppliers, and yet still take more profit per item sold.

Somehow we've developed a culture where retail calls the shots and suppliers and manufacturers get squeezed and controlled by them. If anyone doubts this then look at the profits that supermarkets make relative to the profits farmers make.................
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Motorhomes: after a new van last year, UK dealer had no demo and no stock, but expected full retail price. when I asked for a discount particularly as he did not even have a van to show me! the answer was a resounding and begrudging no..I just laughed and put the phone down....

Germany in comparison dealers tend to buy large stock so simply a matter of choosing spec/color you want and negotiating a discount, 17% possible and have saved approx £23k on last 2 campers alone

You have a similar thing with e bikes going on..you googly a German brand and up pops loads of dealers and when you call, Errr no, nufink in stock so no demo either....Just chancers

German ebay as far as e bikes concerned is used by some big dealers as a way of advertising, and getting rid of stock, and does not have the negative connotations associated with it here...you still have to be careful mind!
 
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funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
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South Shields, Tyne & Wear
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. In the UK, the retail sector (in pretty much any product area) has got very used to having a high mark up. I understand that retailers have costs, too, but most take few risks when compared to manufacturers and suppliers, and yet still take more profit per item sold.

Somehow we've developed a culture where retail calls the shots and suppliers and manufacturers get squeezed and controlled by them. If anyone doubts this then look at the profits that supermarkets make relative to the profits farmers make.................
Supermarkets aside....they are a whole different ball game......to say that retailers take few risks is just not right......just try discussing that with most small retailers struggling to keep going with rising rates, utility bills, N.I., staff problems, financing their stock, unresponsive banks etc etc.......they deserve our support not slagging them off for trying to make a profit in this hard economic climate, just remember a 100% markup doesnt go straight in their pockets you know....otherwise we would ALL be setting up retail shops.

I think most small retailers would fall over laughing at the idea that they are 'calling all the shots' ........:rolleyes:

Lynda :)
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
Supermarkets aside....they are a whole different ball game......to say that retailers take few risks is just not right......just try discussing that with most small retailers struggling to keep going with rising rates, utility bills, N.I., staff problems, financing their stock, unresponsive banks etc etc.......they deserve our support not slagging them off for trying to make a profit in this hard economic climate, just remember a 100% markup doesnt go straight in their pockets you know....otherwise we would ALL be setting up retail shops.

I think most small retailers would fall over laughing at the idea that they are 'calling all the shots' ........:rolleyes:

Lynda :)
First off, by way of background, my mother's run a farm for the past 40 years...........

Now, why exactly is it fine for retailers to have a 100% mark up, but not suppliers?

Both face the same costs in terms of all the things you mentioned, yet somehow it seems OK for suppliers to work on a margin of a few tens of % at best, and also alright for retailers to work on a margin of 100%. Why?
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
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Tamworth
I think most small retailers would fall over laughing at the idea that they are 'calling all the shots' ........:rolleyes:
Not just small retailers Comet ,Blockbuster, HMV, Jessops etc certainly weren't
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
3
Tamworth
First off, by way of background, my mother's run a farm for the past 40 years...........

Now, why exactly is it fine for retailers to have a 100% mark up, but not suppliers?

Both face the same costs in terms of all the things you mentioned, yet somehow it seems OK for suppliers to work on a margin of a few tens of % at best, and also alright for retailers to work on a margin of 100%. Why?
Food has always been different super markets do not work on 100% mark ups sometimes more like 4-5% hence smaller margins for suppliers. Also food is something we have to buy and so is far more price sensitive than other more luxury items.
 

jazper53

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 20, 2012
890
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Brighton
First off, by way of background, my mother's run a farm for the past 40 years...........

Now, why exactly is it fine for retailers to have a 100% mark up, but not suppliers?

Both face the same costs in terms of all the things you mentioned, yet somehow it seems OK for suppliers to work on a margin of a few tens of % at best, and also alright for retailers to work on a margin of 100%. Why?
I have great sympathy for the farmers, and the way they have been treated by supermarket purchase pricing, which have forced a lot of dairy farms out of business. The industry is starting to fight back and market their own products direct to the customers to the benefit of the customer and suppliers, and removing the middle man completely, which will be a example for other suppliers to consider there own marketing which hopefully will start to break the unhealthy monopolies these supermarkets chains seem to have.
 
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funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
First off, by way of background, my mother's run a farm for the past 40 years...........

Now, why exactly is it fine for retailers to have a 100% mark up, but not suppliers?

Both face the same costs in terms of all the things you mentioned, yet somehow it seems OK for suppliers to work on a margin of a few tens of % at best, and also alright for retailers to work on a margin of 100%. Why?
Woah.....having recently been married to a farmer for 35 years and with a sister in farming, please dont get me started on farmers.......

Otherwise I might start asking why they have to be subsidised left right and centre by ultimately the taxpayer, when most other businesses get no help whatsoever.....

And as garry says, food production is a very different ball game as I had said previously.....not that I agree with supermarkets dictating to food producers what they are allowed to sell their produce for....far from it......but lets face it , farmers get way more financial help through subsidies than other businesses.....no sign of it stopping either whilst we are in the EU.......so hardly a level playing field is it ?

Lynda :)
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
If anyone can find an eZee bike from the curret range at a lower equivalent Sterling retail price anywhere on the planet than from Cyclezee I will give that person £100:eek:
Just to clarify, the models and specifications of eZee bikes sold by Cyclezee are the same as elsewhere in the world, the only difference is ours come with a left hand throttle rather than a right hand one.
 

jazper53

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 20, 2012
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Brighton
Woah.....having recently been married to a farmer for 35 years and with a sister in farming, please dont get me started on farmers.......

Otherwise I might start asking why they have to be subsidised left right and centre by ultimately the taxpayer, when most other businesses get no help whatsoever.....

And as garry says, food production is a very different ball game as I had said previously.....not that I agree with supermarkets dictating to food producers what they are allowed to sell their produce for....far from it......but lets face it , farmers get way more financial help through subsidies than other businesses.....no sign of it stopping either whilst we are in the EU.......so hardly a level playing field is it ?

Lynda :)
We had farm subsidies before we entered the EEC , I worked in the industry in the 70s, and it main reason was to keep the price of certain produce ie : beef, cheaper for the consumer
 
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funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
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South Shields, Tyne & Wear
We had farm subsidies before we entered the EEC as i worked in the industry in the 70s, and it main reason was to keep the price of certain produce ie : beef, cheaper for the consumer
Yes I know jazper, but the subsidies have actually escalated to ludicrous proportions since then.......and it certainly isnt working to keep beef cheaper now is it.

But what is probably more to the point than farmers getting rich on subsidies ( they do, after all work hard )...just how did these bl**** robbing b****** supermarkets GET so powerful.......
of course what we should all be doing is voting with our feet and supporting small local businesses more, which brings us back full circle to small retail businesses, albeit selling food now not e-bikes, interesting how these threads veer around. :D


Lynda :)