The dongle re-visited

[Gubbins]

I keep considering the dongle but don't want to risk getting in trouble with the boys in blue, but having said that it would be nice to have it available at the flick of a switch. Now I am not an engineer or technician, more a professional bodjer so excuse my ignorance.
It would seem that there are 2 types of dongle.. The matchbox that fits over the wheel sensor and does its thing, and the wired in jobby that has a removable jack plug. I think I read somewhere that you can extend this plug using a headphone extension cable and if so would it be a case of simply intrupting this cable with a switch?

 

[Wander]

More elegantly than interrupting the cable I'm sure that I've read somewhere that it is possible to use the light switch on the Bosch system to operate the dongle.

Having said that as I understand it this is a really bad idea as having any sort of switch to turn on / off the tuning makes the bike automatically illegal to use on the road / public place whereas having the jack plug type one with the dongle removed keeps it legal.

Not a lawyer so willing to be corrected!

 

[Gubbins]

Not bothered about correcting you as if that's possible then it's an excellent compromise! There is a new e-bike shop opened within 25 miles of me so may have a ride over and ask...

 

[Wander]

Is it an excellent compromise though especially considering that you don't want to risk getting into trouble with the boys in blue?

 

[Gubbins]

Is it an excellent compromise though especially considering that you don't want to risk getting into trouble with the boys in blue?

Yes I think so, but more importantly is it actually possible?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Nobody has yet tried the Speedict Venus, which not only is cheaper but it also does a lot of other useful things. The speed limit can be switched on and off remotely from your phone. Nobody would know.
http://www.speedict.com/

 

[SRS]

Comes up time and time again.

Is there actually anyone on this forum or a friend of anyone on this forum who has been prosecuted or jailed for the illegal use of a dongle or any over the allowed limit cycle.

If there is, please tell all, thanks.

It is my belief that the police are not bothered and are more interested in cyclists on the phone and texting whilst on the move.

 

[Gubbins]

The only issue I can see is if you are knocked off they will use it as an excuse for not paying out, or even making it your fault. Still, each to their own... I would really like to be able to easily turn it on an off. Maybe I am just a silly old fart....

 

[SRS]

Nobody has yet tried the Speedict Venus, which not only is cheaper but it also does a lot of other useful things. The speed limit can be switched on and off remotely from your phone. Nobody would know.
http://www.speedict.com/

Dave, I don't understand how this could be used with a Bosch system. Can it?

 

[halfer]

I've been meaning to blog about a home-grown dongle I was working on - didn't quite finish it, but I think the theory is sound.

It's basically an Arduino Nano (mini computer on a board) with an electromagnet and a Hall effect sensor. You move your rear-wheel magnet to a new position on the wheel, and put the Hall effect sensor next to it on the frame. The electromagnet is then added next to the bike's own Hall sensor.

All you need to do then is to read the input rate of pulses and output a slower proportional rate using a simple program. The best algorithm would need to be tested, but something as simple as skipping input pulses might work. Or, maybe creating a list of time intervals, and playing them back at a slower rate (throwing away intervals that are too old). I rather liked the idea of being able to customise the response map - this changes the handling upon acceleration.

The costs of this are £20 for the computer (can be brought down to £10 for the simpler version) and then the other bits and pieces can be bought from an electronics store. So if anyone is bored, give that a go - a speed dongle for £30 or so.

Still, €65 for the Speedict seems okay, and it'd probably be more reliable than my contraption!

 

[Backin5]

Yes, I don't think the problem is with spot checks by the police on our bikes. It's more to do with the chain of events after an RTA, and by fitting a dongle it could be argued that your bike is no longer a push bike, and you could have the book thrown at you for no insurance, helmet, unroadworthy vehicle (no indicators, brake light, etc) as you'd be riding what is technically a motor bike.

Nobody plans to have an accident, but we can all plan to be legal all of time. I'm pretty sure the anti ebike gang would love to spin a fatal RTA involving a 'recklessly powerful electric motorbike'.

I know there's a tiny niche for 'off road' use of fast ebikes, but come on, who are we kidding?

My concern is more for bike on bike and bike on pedestrian incidents, injuries at 30 mph are far more serious than at 20.

 

[Gubbins]

Yes, I don't think the problem is with spot checks by the police on our bikes. It's more to do with the chain of events after an RTA, and by fitting a dongle it could be argued that your bike is no longer a push bike, and you could have the book thrown at you for no insurance, helmet, unroadworthy vehicle (no indicators, brake light, etc) as you'd be riding what is technically a motor bike.

Nobody plans to have an accident, but we can all plan to be legal all of time. I'm pretty sure the anti ebike gang would love to spin a fatal RTA involving a 'recklessly powerful electric motorbike'.

I know there's a tiny niche for 'off road' use of fast ebikes, but come on, who are we kidding?

My concern is more for bike on bike and bike on pedestrian incidents, injuries at 30 mph are far more serious than at 20.

I'm my case... 20mph is an unattainable target at the moment ! 30mph+ is downhills only. Everyone can do as they please, becoming a nuisance or a problem as they so wish... And then stand the consequences... But for me I would like to be able to go the extra mile when appropriate!

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Comes up time and time again.

Is there actually anyone on this forum or a friend of anyone on this forum who has been prosecuted or jailed for the illegal use of a dongle or any over the allowed limit cycle.

If there is, please tell all, thanks.

It is my belief that the police are not bothered and are more interested in cyclists on the phone and texting whilst on the move.

as you've asked the question - let me reply from an industry perspective.

The current legal situation with the limit as it is - is very very good for everyone. Being able to ride what are essentially motorised vehicles on the road with no tax, insurance, MOT, helmet, license etc etc... is whats going to help support the growth of cycling generally and eBikes more specifically, which benefits everyone. More bikes means better safety for everyone on the roads, and more bikes means more pressure on government to provide better facilities for cyclist be they eBikes or normal.

Now its our firm belief and also that of most governments that the current limit is a sensible one... any higher assisted speeds and the ebike becomes more of a vehicle and therefore should be subject to more legislation for the protection of the rider and also the rest of the road users.

The problem is not just one for an individual but also for the industry in the UK.

From an individual point of view, there is of course the simple risk that most people seem to discuss. ie you'll get caught riding it and be prosecuted and the bike crushed as any other illegal vehicle would be.

But its also important to realise you're essentially riding an untaxed, unMOT'd illegal vehicle on the roads. So yes, the chance of you getting caught is small. But statistics dictate that as more people use these bikes on the road, the chances of one being involved in a crash becomes higher and higher - eventually it will happen, its not an "if" its a "when" and when it does happen, the results could be very serious for the individual and company that sold the bike. At that point if Car Driver X say's "the bike arrived at a speed I really wasn't expecting, so I had to swerve and I wiped out the BMW, or worse someone gets injured". Who do you think the insurance people / police are going to come after?

You as in individual, but also the company that sold you the bike, because they clearly knew you'd be using it illegally.

Next season KTM will be making S class bikes, but we won't be allowing dealers in the UK to order them, because we strongly believe that its not good for the individuals using them, or the further of the eBIke industry in the UK. It'll only take one accident for the current legislation to be clamped down and for that to impact on everyone..... which could easily mean that eBikes even under the current limit are forced to comply with new rules. Which could mean a whole host of legislation which will kill the use of eBikes in this country, just as its starting.

We will sell the more powerful bikes once there is a way to ride them legally, until then we will not, for the reasons mentioned above.

It won't be popular on this forum, but its our strong belief that the current law is the best we're going to get.

 

[SRS]

Well thanks KTM, only asked but I can see where you are coming from. I look forward to the S class in my next life time.

On another note, I did see a KTM on the forum some weeks back, sub 10kg, no electric? Carbon frame, I think.

I had many doses of radiotherapy on my left foot last summer, seems more and more I can ride a regular bike without pain. It must have done some good.

I'm in the market for a low weight hard tail MTB. Where can I view, test ride KTM's. I am based in Sussex.

Thanks

 

[Gubbins]

Nobody has yet tried the Speedict Venus, which not only is cheaper but it also does a lot of other useful things. The speed limit can be switched on and off remotely from your phone. Nobody would know.
http://www.speedict.com/

Had a look at it and it looks a bit flimsy and unprotected which seems to need strapping to the frame..

 

[Gubbins]

as you've asked the question - let me reply from an industry perspective.

The current legal situation with the limit as it is - is very very good for everyone. Being able to ride what are essentially motorised vehicles on the road with no tax, insurance, MOT, helmet, license etc etc... is whats going to help support the growth of cycling generally and eBikes more specifically, which benefits everyone. More bikes means better safety for everyone on the roads, and more bikes means more pressure on government to provide better facilities for cyclist be they eBikes or normal.

Now its our firm belief and also that of most governments that the current limit is a sensible one... any higher assisted speeds and the ebike becomes more of a vehicle and therefore should be subject to more legislation for the protection of the rider and also the rest of the road users.

The problem is not just one for an individual but also for the industry in the UK.

From an individual point of view, there is of course the simple risk that most people seem to discuss. ie you'll get caught riding it and be prosecuted and the bike crushed as any other illegal vehicle would be.

But its also important to realise you're essentially riding an untaxed, unMOT'd illegal vehicle on the roads. So yes, the chance of you getting caught is small. But statistics dictate that as more people use these bikes on the road, the chances of one being involved in a crash becomes higher and higher - eventually it will happen, its not an "if" its a "when" and when it does happen, the results could be very serious for the individual and company that sold the bike. At that point if Car Driver X say's "the bike arrived at a speed I really wasn't expecting, so I had to swerve and I wiped out the BMW, or worse someone gets injured". Who do you think the insurance people / police are going to come after?

You as in individual, but also the company that sold you the bike, because they clearly knew you'd be using it illegally.

Next season KTM will be making S class bikes, but we won't be allowing dealers in the UK to order them, because we strongly believe that its not good for the individuals using them, or the further of the eBIke industry in the UK. It'll only take one accident for the current legislation to be clamped down and for that to impact on everyone..... which could easily mean that eBikes even under the current limit are forced to comply with new rules. Which could mean a whole host of legislation which will kill the use of eBikes in this country, just as its starting.

We will sell the more powerful bikes once there is a way to ride them legally, until then we will not, for the reasons mentioned above.

It won't be popular on this forum, but its our strong belief that the current law is the best we're going to get.

Hi KTM
An interesting and understandable viewpoint. But out in the real world 90‰ of cyclists easily pass me on the road, riding at at least 20mph (except on the hills of course) and I would like the option of spending up a bit when I think it's appropriate. With regards to the law everyone who uses a vehicle of some kind will break the law in some small way.

 

[RobF]

I grasp that illegal is illegal, but the Bosch dongle has a comparatively weedy impact on the speed of the bike.

I wouldn't want a member on here to buy one thinking it will turn their bike into a road rocket - it won't.

My Rose is not a quick bike anyway, but even dongled it needs a fair bit of pedalling to get it above 20mph.

 

[Gubbins]

This might seem a bit ..... not sure what word to use here, but I recently bought a new car which is easily capable of 100MPH and thinking back at no time was I advised that this was against the law! and if I modified the car to go even faster then how would this impact on the both the car supplier/manufacturer and the current speed law? Having thought about this a bit more I think there is a big difference between a highly modified E-Bike (as seen on youtube) that will do silly silly speeds and a UK legal bike that has been tweaked a bit to reach speeds that most normal cyclists do anyway.. Having said that I do welcome all opinions..

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I have a vivid imagination. I had a thought that maybe the reason that nobody is checking ebikes for legality is that somebody wants to know whether more powerful or faster bikes would cause any problems. How else could they find out? I'm sure that there's a lot more to all this than meets the eye. Luckily, it seems that people aren't queuing up to wipe themselves out or massacre innocent bystanders.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

you're all correct - of course.

We not saying, its not faster, more fun etc etc... and we're not even saying you'll get caught.

Or that being on one of these illegal bikes is actually any more dangerous than a normal bikes, being ridden fast.

What we're saying is that when (its inevitable) one is involved in an accident, the user is simply not going to have a leg to stand on because you'll be riding an illegal vehicle.

Think of it like driving drunk (stop thinking of it like speeding). Its illegal, but you could argue you're still safer than many who are driving sober. You could be obeying all of the other rules of the road, but should you be involved in a crash, even if its not your fault. IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT because you'll be breaking the law.

I know we all speed in cars etc etc... but this is not the same as that, and if you think it is you're really not understanding the laws you are breaking and the risks you are taking so you should probably do a lot more research before you stray onto the public highways and biways.