The "death" of the car, (as we know it)

[flecc]

This is what happens when you use a terminological inexactitude. Like including the word 'just' as in 'You just need...'. Home charging is not a sine qua non of running an electric car. Having a place to charge in your vicinity is.

Just (!) theory. What happens if:

It's already occupied by someone else having just started to charge, bearing in mind most chargers take 4 hours or more.

Ditto with a rapid charger, do I hang around the half to threequarters of an hour in the hope they will come back promptly, that's far from guaranteed.

An i.c. car has been parked in the charging bay and adjacent cars prevent you reaching the point. Happens all the time.

The charge point is out of action. That often happens and the availability maps do not update in real time.

I'm not theorising, having gone into the subject very deeply I've read all the accounts of the difficulties owners suffer, as well as the pluses.

The fact is that as things stand and for the foreseeable future, a home charging point is essential for almost everyone considering an e-car, Trying to run one solely on public charging points would vary from time wastingly very inconvenient and frustrating to near impossibility.
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[PeterL]

The fact is that as things stand and for the foreseeable future, a home charging point is essential for almost everyone considering an e-car, Trying to run one solely on public charging points would vary from time wastingly very inconvenient and frustrating to near impossibility.
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Certainly agree with this even as the range of these cars increases. Having said that, I can't agree with much else, the charger points seem to work more often that not, up here at least and there is usually 4 or more chargers per station. As for houses without attached garages, they don't build them like that up here. at least not if you're paying for them and even then just about all Housing Association's have attached garages.. On the other hand if you go back a few years, we had Tenements. That's two our more houses built on top of one another, in rows, not with garages of course. Those of us lucky enough to have a garage are also fortunate to get the charging point fitted foc.

 

[Zlatan]

If you look at number and size of petrol stations at moment and then consider an ecar takes 4 times the time to charge as it foes fill a car up with fuel and that gives you half mileage we will need ( even on those optimistic figures) 8 times the area currently devoted to filling stations. It does not work at all if we cant charge at home. Its marginal then.
If I could charge at home and guarantee 180 miles for same price I currently run second car. ( a moneo diesel) I,d buy one tomorrow. ( Mondeo can carry kit on roof and launch boat when asked will ecar? Doubt it).

 

[PeterL]

If you look at number and size of petrol stations at moment and then consider an ecar takes 4 times the time to charge as it foes fill a car up with fuel and that gives you half mileage we will need ( even on those optimistic figures) 8 times the area currently devoted to filling stations. It does not work at all if we cant charge at home. Its marginal then.

Things will change, if not charge - very fast - see here

And here

 

[flecc]

the charger points seem to work more often that not, up here at least and there is usually 4 or more chargers per station.

True, but for an e-commuter needing to charge every day, it won't be long before they hit the problems I mentioned. Our circumstances down here are very different, we tend to only get multiple charge points when they are the 13 amp types taking all night, fast chargers are almost always singles.

Population densities and building/planning regs here mean terraced properties and flats are commonplace and have been for many years, detached and semi-detached being built are a rarity now.

As I posted earlier it's where e-cars are most appropriate, the cities and large towns where 85% live, that the charging access problems are greatest. The authorities talk about more street charge points but even if they did start to provide them it would still be a problem. Street parking space is at a premium in much of London for example and i.c. car owners will use charge point bays if there's no other space available. They already do that with the minimal number of street chargepoints we do have, so taking up more spaces with more charge points would only make matters worse.
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[PeterL]

Street parking space is at a premium in much of London for example and i.c. car owners will use charge point bays if there's no other space available. They already do that with the minimal number of street chargepoints we do have, so taking up more spaces with more charge points would only make matters worse.
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Surely that would be a parking offence? My odd trips down to London, I used to live there, tell me that the Wardens are probably even more officious than I remember?

 

[Zlatan]

Things will change, if not charge - very fast - see here

And here

Yes they will. I was making point that home charging is essential for any system to be feasible.

 

[flecc]

Surely that would be a parking offence? My odd trips down to London, I used to live there, tell me that the Wardens are probably even more officious than I remember?

Only in a controlled zone, and they tend to be more in business centres than residential areas. The latter when they have parking control consist only in stretches where parking is permitted with a residents permit on display. The total space there is usually less than necessary, not marked in bays, and I've never known of a charge point in such an area. I've pursued that possibility but found no-one is interested in providing them.
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[flecc]

Things will change, if not charge - very fast - see here

And here

Mainly exotica, hardly electrifying the market, (pun intended).
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[Danidl]

Yes they will. I was making point that home charging is essential for any system to be feasible.

Interesting thread.. flecc arguing from the particular to the general, zathlan arguing from the general to the particular. A pleasant juxposition! . .
I would suggest that that a local driveway, at a minimum, is a requirement for having a car, whether petroleum or electric. On road parking is a poor substitute. I would concur with Zathlan, that home charging is the only feasible way in which private electric cars can exist. Community hire or club owned ecars make sense for occasional use

 

[flecc]

Interesting thread.. flecc arguing from the particular to the general.

In my own case I've spent vast amounts of time on this subject over the last decade through interest in buying an e-car throughout that time. The snags are very real and more far reaching than many appreciate and it amuses me how often I'm told I'm wrong about the difficulties by those who obviously don't know the subject and don't have an e-car.

I would suggest that that a local driveway, at a minimum, is a requirement for having a car, whether petroleum or electric. On road parking is a poor substitute.

I agree and have always said that the authorities made a very big mistake back in the 1920s and '30s in allowing street parking to commence. It's a gross misuse of expensive facilities meant for travel.

Had it never been permitted our environment would look very different today, and I venture to suggest would be a much better one.
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[PeterL]

In my own case I've spent vast amounts of time on this subject over the last decade through interest in buying an e-car throughout that time. The snags are very real and more far reaching than many appreciate and it amuses me how often I'm told I'm wrong about the difficulties by those who obviously don't know the subject and don't have an e-car.



I agree and have always said that the authorities made a very big mistake back in the 1920s and '30s in allowing street parking to commence. It's a gross misuse of expensive facilities meant for travel.

Had it never been permitted our environment would look very different today, and I venture to suggest would be a much better one.
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I can see the point you make but, especially as, in the main, the roads were also narrow. However, so were the pavements and many of the houses were terraced and without gardens, let alone drives with garages. Very much chicken and egg.

Anyway, why can't we be positive about Electric cars? I say that as someone that does have one. Not for everyone, I accept that, but certainly suited to far more than actually have one at the moment.

 

[anotherkiwi]

A very long time ago we thought about cars (Excel spreadsheets are a wonderful thing) and changed our way of looking at them. Had an electric car existed on the market then it would have been a reasonable option. We went from a Citroën XM which was parked out front most of the time because not adapted to city use to a Smart. When we needed to move 5 people not just two we rented. The Smart was used almost every day. The cost per month was exactly the same as when we had the XM but we had more flexibility (4, 5 or 6 passengers depending) and none of the servicing/repair issues that go with a large older (French) car.

Then we moved to the country and to two cars. $£€...

Now I am alone and got rid of my car 5 years ago and am about to replace it with an electric trike which will be converted to a vélomobile eventually. I just need to be able to carry two bags of shopping or a bag of clothes and whatnot. I have a trailer so eventually camping equipment will be added to the list of stuff to move around when I "retire". The goal is to have an average speed of 35-40 km/h and a range of about 250 km in a day - 3 and a half hours before lunch and the same after.

 

[flecc]

Anyway, why can't we be positive about Electric cars? I say that as someone that does have one. Not for everyone, I accept that, but certainly suited to far more than actually have one at the moment.

I am positive enough to have wanted one from long before most ever realised they were a possibility. But I'm denied that pleasure as are nearly a third of the country, so the refusal to believe that by some is frustrating.

For the remaining two thirds who can have home charging, I agree owning an e-car is sometimes a possibility, and one that will increase as ranges increase.

I'd like to see more honesty on the subject though:

Range for example. That is realistically only two thirds of the makers claim in average circumstances and half the makers claim in adverse circumstances. That sort of misinformation is fine for i.c cars where a handy filling station caters for it, but not for e-cars.

Charge times too. A fast charge station is still often claimed to charge to 80% in 30 minutes, making a motorway trip viable with a coffee break it's said. But that's based from several years ago on the 24 kW Nissan Leaf of that time. The new Leaf for example has a 40 kW battery taking nearer an hour to fast charge at one of those few points, and 2019 sees an even larger battery version. Other makes have also seen their batteries greatly increase in capacity and charge times, sometimes much more than the new Leaf battery.

And that hits home charging too. The typical points are still being claimed as charging in either 4 or 8 hours, depending on rating installed, but again on the new Leaf example a buyer will discover those are 6Hrs 40 minutes or 13 Hrs 20 minutes The 13 Amp charging facility these have that took 12 hours originally now takes an impractical 20 hours.

Basically both the onboard and remote infrastructure is not only seriously lacking in availability but increasingly in practicality as well, and nothing is being done about that.

And makers lack of realism goes further. To attempt giving their range claims a degree of believability, Nissan suggest a typical motorway cruising speed is 56 mph. Really? When were they last on a motorway, and who would want a motorway trip sandwiched between a pair of 40 tonne artics the whole way?

All of which might suggest I'm anti e-cars, but nothing could be further from the truth. My above criticisms are just highlighting why there are hundreds of almost new e-cars with only a couple of thousand miles on the clock being sold at ten thousand or more pounds below cost. It's because the snags are very real and too often discovered by buyers the hard way.

The e-cars are getting much better.

The false claims about them are not.

The infrastructure is going backwards.
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[Danidl]

I am positive enough to have wanted one from long before most ever realised they were a possibility. But I'm denied that pleasure as are nearly a third of the country, so the refusal to believe that by some is frustrating.

For the remaining two thirds who can have home charging, I agree owning an e-car is sometimes a possibility, and one that will increase as ranges increase.

I'd like to see more honesty on the subject though:

Range for example. That is realistically only two thirds of the makers claim in average circumstances and half the makers claim in adverse circumstances. That sort of misinformation is fine for i.c cars where a handy filling station caters for it, but not for e-cars.

Charge times too. A fast charge station is still often claimed to charge to 80% in 30 minutes, making a motorway trip viable with a coffee break it's said. But that's based from several years ago on the 24 kW Nissan Leaf of that time. The new Leaf for example has a 40 kW battery taking nearer an hour to fast charge at one of those few points, and 2019 sees an even larger battery version. Other makes have also seen their batteries greatly increase in capacity and charge times, sometimes much more than the new Leaf battery.

And that hits home charging too. The typical points are still being claimed as charging in either 4 or 8 hours, depending on rating installed, but again on the new Leaf example a buyer will discover those are 6Hrs 40 minutes or 13 Hrs 20 minutes The 13 Amp charging facility these have that took 12 hours originally now takes an impractical 20 hours.

Basically both the onboard and remote infrastructure is not only seriously lacking in availability but increasingly in practicality as well, and nothing is being done about that.

And makers lack of realism goes further. To attempt giving their range claims a degree of believability, Nissan suggest a typical motorway cruising speed is 56 mph. Really? When were they last on a motorway, and who would want a motorway trip sandwiched between a pair of 40 tonne artics the whole way?

All of which might suggest I'm anti e-cars, but nothing could be further from the truth. My above criticisms are just highlighting why there are hundreds of almost new e-cars with only a couple of thousand miles on the clock being sold at ten thousand or more pounds below cost. It's because the snags are very real and too often discovered by buyers the hard way.

The e-cars are getting much better.

The false claims about them are not.

The infrastructure is going backwards.
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I am one of those who could avail. I have a drive, we currently have 3 cars parked, mine, my wife's, and our sons. We could get rid of at least one of the 2 diesel cars, now.. but . Up to two months ago I had a a four hour motorway journey on a weekly basis. My visits to France involve 129 mile minimum drive from roscoff to my place, over rural roads.
Now my longer journeys can be accommodated by using free travel on Irish buses and trains,so the car might not be used for a week at a time.
So my short journeys can be done by bike, the intermediate by public transport, and the longer journeys are beyond the current range . In addition the tax and insurance regime is not conducive to multiple car ownership.
While not being sexist , I could see ecars being very useful for the school run and shopping basket roles.

 

[flecc]

In addition the tax and insurance regime is not conducive to multiple car ownership.

Car insurers are racketeers, and government a partner in that criminal behaviour, not an opinion, a fact.

There are many like myself who have owned two cars with the owner nominated as the only permitted driver. Since one cannot drive more than one car at a time, there is only ever one third party risk. Since the third party cover is the majority of the insurance cost, the second car should be insurable at a greatly reduced price since it adds no uninsured third party risk.

But all insurers refuse our justifiable demand for that fair treatment.

The reasons are multiple:

The government requirements for every vehicle to be separately insured for ANPR recognition.

Both can't be bothered to find a solution that meets all needs.

The insurers enjoy the illicit income.

Both are happy for us to continue to be ripped off.

Car insurance is subject to Insurance Premium Tax, the higher the insurance cost, the more tax the government gets.
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[Zlatan]

Car insurers are racketeers, and government a partner in that criminal behaviour, not an opinion, a fact.

There are many like myself who have owned two cars with the owner nominated as the only permitted driver. Since one cannot drive more than one car at a time, there is only ever one third party risk. Since the third party cover is the majority of the insurance cost, the second car should be insurable at a greatly reduced price since it adds no uninsured third party risk.

But all insurers refuse our justifiable demand for that fair treatment.

The reasons are multiple:

The government requirements for every vehicle to be separately insured for ANPR recognition.

Both can't be bothered to find a solution that meets all needs.

The insurers enjoy the illicit income.

Both are happy for us to continue to be ripped off.

Car insurance is subject to Insurance Premium Tax, the higher the insurance cost, the more tax the government gets.
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Great post.

 

[PeterL]

Great post.

Not too sure where I saw it but, I do believe that an Insurance broker has the solution with a scheme that insures by the hour. I'll do a Google later and update. Found it INSURE BY THE HOUR

Meanwhile found this earlier which is a basic calculator of charging times for EV's - rather neat.

 

[flecc]

Not too sure where I saw it but, I do believe that an Insurance broker has the solution with a scheme that insures by the hour. I'll do a Google later and update. Found it INSURE BY THE HOUR

Thanks, I'll have a look later at the insure by the hour option, but suspect the variability of my usage could make for difficulties and possibly high cost. Car insurance is riddled with unsuspected difficulties, for example my present two cannot be considered for any form of multicar benefit due to the way they are classified. I'm betting they will be ruled out for a common insurance on the by the hour option.

Meanwhile found this earlier which is a basic calculator of charging times for EV's - rather neat.

Not fully up to date with the latest models, a very common failing with all EV facilities, but good where suitable. It neatly exposes one of the infrastructure failings I mentioned, the half hour motorway "coffee break" high speed charge taking over 2.5 hours on some models. Some coffee break, more like a five course dinner, and showing how far the infrastructure is lagging behind the need and latest model advances.
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[mike killay]

One way around it for just City driving would be to make much smaller lighter 4 seater cars rather on the lines of the pre First World War ' Cyclecar'
Also, a standard battery which could be mechanically swapped at filling stations in a matter of minutes.