Thank you Kudos 4 Redbridge!

[trex]

The totally legal GoCyle has an even more potent motor, 40A controller and programmable power curve.

Powerful motors and controllers are not illegal but they must be restricted to 15mph to be legal. d8veh bike is totally legal because he programmed it to cutoff assistance at 15mph. Both of them did not exceed the legal speed limit when going uphill on the video, but they did show how good bikes eat hills (Steve Hall, have you seen the video?).

sorry my mistake,so its not this bike then ....Carrera Kraken with mods 500 W Bafang CST motor with 30 amp controller, 20 ah battery & Speedict Mercury .....? could you please advise us of the technical spec of these legal ebikes that climb at that speed without pedalling...i have only ever seen german s class capable of that...

regards

 

[shemozzle999]

Interesting comparison selection Trex, I do not know where you got the 40A figure from but if you are correct then these design faults could be a highly potential fire hazard.

Technical Bulletins


250W at thermal equilibrium?

http://www.gocycle.com/Articles.asp?ID=288

 

[50 Hertz]

The totally legal GoCyle has an even more potent motor, 40A controller and programmable power curve.

Powerful motors and controllers are not illegal but they must be restricted to 15mph to be legal. d8veh bike is totally legal because he programmed it to cutoff assistance at 15mph. Both of them did not exceed the legal speed limit when going uphill on the video, but they did show how good bikes eat hills (Steve Hall, have you seen the video?).

I'm sorry but that's wrong. The motor's power must be restricted for it to be legal. Restricting the speed to 15 mph isn't enough. I'm not saying that I agree, because I can't see how a powerful bike restricted to 15 mph is anymore dangerous than a legal bike, but that's the way it is.

Forum member Jeremy posted an excellent description of how motor power can be measured for legality. As you will see, there is quite a lot of scope for the motor to have a peak power output way beyond 250 W and still be legal.

It's not simply a case of what the label on the motor says, as some have alluded to, that is misleading. There are many factors involved in producing a legal bike, motor, controller, battery etc.

Jeremy's post. It tells you all that you need to know.

In case anyone is interested, I've just plotted the curve of power and acceleration time over 20m for a 150kg total bike weight, as described in Annex D of EN15194 as an acceptable means of showing compliance with the 250W power limit.

The red line is the 250W limit and if you look at the plot you can see that an EPAC needs to take at least 7.83 seconds to cover 20m from a standing start (on level ground with little wind) in order to be shown to have no more than 250W.

Note also that if you add a power application delay, say you just slow down the controller response time to a demand for more power, then this has the effect of moving that curve (and the vertical red line) to the left. For example, if you added a 2 second delay ramp to the controller input then the continuous power output would really be about 600W, yet the test would give a result of 250W.

If you wanted to be more extreme, then making the controller acceleration ramp 3 seconds would allow you to have well over 1kw, yet it would still legally be a 250W EPAC.

Curious way to frame a set of rules, but I suppose they must have had their reasons for doing it this way.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's not simply a case of what the label on the motor says, as some have alluded to, that is misleading. There are many factors involved in producing a legal bike, motor, controller, battery etc.

I didn't say the motor was legal because it has a 250w label on it. What I said was that it's as legal as any other bike with a 250w label on it. Don't forget that under UK law, 250w is not yet legal, although we seem to have some sort of amnesty against prosecution. There's no degrees of legality. It's an absolute condition, i.e. legal or not, so a 250w bike is just as illegal as a 1500w one.

 

[shemozzle999]

I didn't say the motor was legal because it has a 250w label on it. What I said was that it's as legal as any other bike with a 250w label on it. Don't forget that under UK law, 250w is not yet legal, although we seem to have some sort of amnesty against prosecution. There's no degrees of legality. It's an absolute condition, i.e. legal or not, so a 250w bike is just as illegal as a 1500w one.

Jackcanory.

 

[trex]

shemozzle999,

The GoCycle G2Rs have an 11AH 22V battery, German motor, in-house controller, assembled by Flextronics in Hungary and are capable of climbing hills at 15mph in pedelec (legal) mode, and 20mph by pressing the Empower button. You can download a nice brochure from Ghistelinck http://www.greenmiles.be/media/downloads/brochure-ghistelinck.pdf.

I am sure d8veh knows a lot more than me about this bike.

 

[shemozzle999]

shemozzle999,

The GoCycle G2Rs have an 11AH 22V battery, German motor, in-house controller, assembled by Flextronics in Hungary and are capable of climbing hills at 15mph in pedelec (legal) mode, and 20mph by pressing the Empower button. You can download a nice brochure from Ghistelinck http://www.greenmiles.be/media/downloads/brochure-ghistelinck.pdf.

I am sure d8veh knows a lot more than me about this bike.

Hence illegal

 

[trex]

Well, you may see it that way but it's legal and selling well in the EU. d8veh was very impressed by it at Redbridge. Most bikes at Redbridge have much more potent motors than the 250W 8-Fun SWX. Even that one usually runs at over 400W on hills.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Jackcanory.

Making crass comments doesn't add anything to the debate, you should explain and justify your views.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Interesting comparison selection Trex, I do not know where you got the 40A figure from but if you are correct then these design faults could be a highly potential fire hazard.

This figure came directly from the Gocycle Technicians that clearly knew their stuff. They were able to explain all technical details about their bikes . They have a pre-configured mode that they call "Swiss Mode" that releases the maximum potential of their system (40 amps). The system is programmed remotely by bluetooth from their smart-phones. They didn't make it clear whether you get access to that file, but without it, you probably wouldn't be able to get that power. Even at normal power (City Mode), the motor had plenty of poke - about the same as the other more powerful bikes.

 

[baldylox]

Legal/illegal, surely for another post.

Back to Redbridge and thanks d8veh for the video. I think this showed me what I wanted to know about the home build e-bikes. The hill climb at the end of the circuit on throttle only(?) appeared pretty Impressive. I tried a few e-bikes and those with a throttle I ceased pedalling at the white line (if you know what I mean) and tried to get up on throttle only. I'm 90kgs and none of the bikes on show (apart from the Gocycle) managed this task with too much distinction.

Your video demonstration appears to show that (an apparently legal?) e-bike with modification suited to hill climbing are far more suitable than any of the competition, or am I missing something?
I certainly didn't feel that the Arriba or Tornado had the same "pull" up the hill, however they are both accomplished in other ways IMO.

I think I'm getting closer to recognising what it is I want from an e-bike (and it's not all out speed - I'm quite happy pedalling on the flat or slight inclines), I want a useful boost up the steeper hills... and full suspension for off road.

I maintain that all the Bosch driven e-bikes I tested did not appear to have the "grunt" I need up the hill, whereas the Panasonic hub drive gave me the most appropriate level of power. But of course this was all on a nice smooth road, nothing like the type of terrain I frequent!

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Congratulations Dave, what a massive success!!

Well done sir!!

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

Article below details efficiency loss with hub gears on a bike

Gear Hubs vs Derailleur | Hubstripping.com

This is a good article, but it doesn't correctly state the efficiency loss of hub gears, stating as it does that they are 92% efficient. In fact in lab testing only one test has ever achieved such a high figure on one particular hub gear, the SRAM 3 speed, and that has been questioned by the other testing authorities.

In practice all hub gears have efficiencies that vary widely by the number of gears they have and the ratios of those gears. In general they are between 84% and 89% efficient, the most efficient being the three speed hubs. The efficency also depends on which gear they are in, the most used gears normally less efficient.

There's also mention that the Rohloff hub doesn't suffer these inefficiencies, that's utter nonsense taken directly from Rohloffs insistent propaganda that they are 99% efficient, completely impossible on a compound stage orbital gear system. It's little different from the rest in practice.
.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Your right Flecc just did a quick google to give people an idea and demonstrate point I was trying to make and give people some understanding of the differences in efficiency without getting too technical. Should have looked for something on Sheldon Brown's site, shame he is not still with us.

 

[flecc]

Your right Flecc just did a quick google to give people an idea and demonstrate point I was trying to make and give people some understanding of the differences in efficiency without getting too technical. Should have looked for something on Sheldon Brown's site, shame he is not still with us.

Nothing wrong in that, it's a good and useful article with only the efficiency figure in question, probably due to using manufacturer figures. Sorry if my correction of that made me appear overly critical of the article.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

No far from it. My collegue normally covers the mechanical side so always find additional information useful, you can never know everything. Regarding manufacturers claims the same is often true e.g. battery range, not always the case but often true. I tend to half claimed range when I speak to people about different bikes, it is not an exact science as there are too many variables but normally a reasonable estimate.

 

[103Alex1]

I think I'm getting closer to recognising what it is I want from an e-bike (and it's not all out speed - I'm quite happy pedalling on the flat or slight inclines), I want a useful boost up the steeper hills... and full suspension for off road.

I think you'd get that from what's classified as a LPM more readily than one that's classified as a bicycle in the UK. Basically, for long steep hills I personally don't think any e-Bikes classified as bicycles here will give you proper 'grunt'.

Longer term, and having tried out both high and regular powered eBikes, unless I move out of an area with very steep hills, am pretty much now of the view that a registered, insured, cheap to run scooter is the best way to go as an alternative to a car - high powered e-Bikes being heavier than ideal to ride in most other terrain and a burden you carry after using them to get where you want to actually ride them. With experience, unregistered LPMs carry risks I wouldn't be in a hurry to take on when set against reasonable alternatives - may as well have a scooter that'll actually reach a decent speed and you can open up if you want to. Don't get me wrong decent LPMs are great to ride, do offer proper grunt and floor hills, but there's a risk:benefit ratio to consider against any savings made or benefits gained.

With a car (that's also big enough to drive your bike to suitable terrain and enjoy riding it there or a decent bike carrier) you can circumvent awkward hills to get to suitable riding spots and enjoy riding your regular bike there, free of all the stuff you'd otherwise be carting around with you - which can be left stowed securely in the boot. The only thing about that is, I know if I had a car the bike would get left in the garage as I'd not be motivated enough to drive it off somewhere to ride. Always too many other things that would take priority. So eBiking is forcing a healthier lifestyle. However, if you've the time, inclination and opportunity to ride regularly and are going to keep a car I'd look very seriously at a good regular bike to take off for manageable rides as a possible alternative.

 

[baldylox]

Thanks for the recommendation Alex, although I'm not sure what an LPM is.
I ride a regular MTB around the forest tracks near me and most have easy to manage terrain but the odd steep incline mean that I have to crawl up some of the steeper hills. As I'm keeping as fit as I'm able my circumstances will soon change somewhat, meaning that the assistance of an e-bike would at least continue my off road cycling in some way.
I often use my camper van to take the bike to locations with good trails so that's not a problem but riding on purely flat terrain can be a bit dull. I like going down hill (at some speed) but of course what comes down must inevitably go up!

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the recommendation Alex, although I'm not sure what an LPM is.

LPM (Low Powered Moped) is a class of assisted bicyle that can have a 1000 watt rated motor. The downside is that the moped laws apply, registration, rear number plate and "tax" disc (free), P1 driving licence and proper m/c helmet. Good for hill climbing though.

 

[baldylox]

Thanks Flecc,

I already ride a Yamaha XTZ 660 so a moped won't really be required, although I can't really take that along the forest tracks (legally). I guess I'll just have to compromise a bit because I'd like an e-bike that I can take off road but with the ability to ride (legally) on road.