Should we be suprised by the Brexit victory?

[oldgroaner]

Exactly as you say.. if it's deemed desirable... you make the mistake of assuming we all want to stop imigration and send the foreigners home...
The idea as I see it is to stop the eu jobless coming here and claiming benefits... and before you say it.. it may not happen where you are but it does here..

For EU citizens these are the rules
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-and-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-claiming-benefits-as-a-jobseeker/

For non EU persons the rules are here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

pleas read the information carefully and make sure you understand it.

All immigrants have very stringent rules applied conditional on not being a burden on the welfare system contrary to what you have been led to believe

 

[Gubbins]

For EU citizens these are the rules
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-and-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-claiming-benefits-as-a-jobseeker/

For non EU persons the rules are here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

pleas read the information carefully and make sure you understand it.

All immigrants have very stringent rules applied conditional on not being a burden on the welfare system contrary to what you have been led to believe

It's not what I have been led to believe, it's what I see with my own eyes..
I know of a woman working here who's mother couldn't afford to retire so she brought her over here and because of her age she was guaranteed £160 per week and was renting her home in wherever without having to declare it. The chap that walked through the tunnel is now on £700 per month benefits (Acording to what I read). I go to the post office every day and see people drawing hundreds of pounds out whist being unable to speak a word of english, some even need help with inputting their pin.
And no amount of intelectual bullying will change that.
Whilst on holiday in majorca we found an article written by a local girl now living in Scotland detailing how to easily beat the system and have a free holiday on benefits..
Eu migrants can claim child benefit for their kids back home..
Go self employed selling the big issue...
Should I go on?
Perhaps I should be called.. another oldgroaner ... lol

 

[flecc]

The idea as I see it is to stop the eu jobless coming here and claiming benefits... and before you say it.. it may not happen where you are but it does here..

Quite right Phill, everywhere, including in London, there are those coming in just for the benefits. They are mostly in small numbers though and only a fraction of those who come here to work.

Much of the problem is that our rules allow abuse. Take the case of the Romanian man who is nominally here claiming benefits for himself and child allowance for his three children in Romania. While getting benefits he also works intermittently for cash in the black economy, though in all other respects he keeps within the rules and knows them in every detail. For example he regularly goes back to Romania, at least once a month, but takes care to ensure he is here three days in every week to fit the rules and avoid threatening his benefits. We also house him of course.

He also brings in other Romanians who work for him here in the black economy, while no doubt taking a cut from what they earn.

And he is completely unabashed about any of this, just smiling broadly and saying the British are very generous people! Indeed, he was entirely happy to have all this filmed by the TV people.

You can see how it's largely our own UK slackness that allows this sort of abuse.
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[Gubbins]

Quite right Phill, everywhere, including in London, there are those coming in just for the benefits. They are mostly in small numbers though and only a fraction of those who come here to work.

Much of the problem is that our rules allow abuse. Take the case of the Romanian man who is nominally here claiming benefits for himself and child allowance for his three children in Romania. While getting benefits he also works intermittently for cash in the black economy, though in all other respects he keeps within the rules and knows them in every detail. For example he regularly goes back to Romania, at least once a month, but takes care to ensure he is here three days in every week to fit the rules and avoid threatening his benefits. We also house him of course.

He also brings in other Romanians who work for him here in the black economy, while no doubt taking a cut from what they earn.

And he is completely unabashed about any of this, just smiling broadly and saying the British are very generous people! Indeed, he was entirely happy to have all this filmed by the TV people.

You can see how it's largely our own UK slackness that allows this sort of abuse.
.

What rubs salt in this for me is my situation.
My wife and I have worked all our lives even when we had three kids. I worked days and she worked nights and weekends bur because our pay was really low we elected for her to pay the married woman's stamp (still paying but not as much as a full stamp). The end result of this was that at her retirement age of 60 she had earned a pension of 12 pence per week.

 

[gray198]

I have already said I expected the result and forecast it, when others doubted remember?
Because people have been deliberately misled into thinking the government didn't agree to all the legislation coming out of the EU, when in fact they did and only in 2% of the case argued against something and lost.
Everything else they agreed to. Hardly a case of being domineered by the EU was it?
Your voting decision wasn't so much stupid as inevitable considering the info you had, but then again, you didn't check whether it was true, did you?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Well then all the politicians of both parties should have been honest. I believe we have been lied to all along about the aims and purpose of the Eu .

 

[gray198]

And now immigration remains the same as before, with the Government admitting it can increase if they want it to, so what have gained?
You should have known better than to listen to anything the Tory Government says,and yet took it as a matter of faith that their non stop sniping at the EU for the last 30 years was all true? Really?

OG it's only been two weeks since the vote. No one expected anything to change immediately.

 

[flecc]

What rubs salt in this for me is my situation.
My wife and I have worked all our lives even when we had three kids. I worked days and she worked nights and weekends bur because our pay was really low we elected for her to pay the married woman's stamp (still paying but not as much as a full stamp). The end result of this was that at her retirement age of 60 she had earned a pension of 12 pence per week.

Yes it's very wrong and we really should be attending to that and such similar matters, instead of allowing the scale of abuse of the benefits system that exists, both by our own population and a minority of immigrants.
.

 

[flecc]

Well then all the politicians of both parties should have been honest. I believe we have been lied to all along about the aims and purpose of the Eu .

That's undeniable. The biggest lies were those at the time of John Major signing us up to Maastricht and a future single country called Europe.
.

 

[Gubbins]

That's undeniable. The biggest lies were those at the time of John Major signing us up to Maastricht and a future single country called Europe.
.

Perhaps the driving force that makes one want to be prime minister includes "at any cost"

 

[flecc]

Perhaps the driving force that makes one want to be prime minister includes "at any cost"

It's impossible to run a country and satisfy more than a tiny proportion of it's people. The only reason anyone might want to do the impossible job of running a country is as an outlet for their desire for power.

Never take any notice of the would be MP who says they want to serve and help others, in truth they just want to control. And so certain are they of their rightness, they will indeed pursue their aim at any cost, just so long as that cost is anothers and not theirs.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

It's not what I have been led to believe, it's what I see with my own eyes..
I know of a woman working here who's mother couldn't afford to retire so she brought her over here and because of her age she was guaranteed £160 per week and was renting her home in wherever without having to declare it. The chap that walked through the tunnel is now on £700 per month benefits (Acording to what I read). I go to the post office every day and see people drawing hundreds of pounds out whist being unable to speak a word of english, some even need help with inputting their pin.
And no amount of intelectual bullying will change that.
Whilst on holiday in majorca we found an article written by a local girl now living in Scotland detailing how to easily beat the system and have a free holiday on benefits..
Eu migrants can claim child benefit for their kids back home..
Go self employed selling the big issue...
Should I go on?
Perhaps I should be called.. another oldgroaner ... lol

Lets examine your quite reasonable distress.
I'll assume you followed the links and saw that there are rules to prevent this abuse set down by our Government.
Are we agreed on that?
Now ask yourself who is to blame for this situation?
Is the EU responsible for overseeing who comes in? NO
Are there rules these people are supposed to comply with to prevent these abuses? YES
Who's responsibility is it to enforce the rules to prevent the abuse?
Come on now its's your turn to answer a simple question
If the Government has set out rules to prevent this abuse, why are you blaming the EU for them being broken?
No one doubts that they are being broken and so it is the responsibility of who to put that right?
The Government.
Tell me now why were you expecting people to come over from Brussels to sort out the mess out Government has lost control of?
And why do you imagine for a moment the Government now will suddenly change and become competent and even interested in exercising the control it should have been doing all along?
And if there are loopholes being exploited (and there are) who is responsible for closing them
I'll give you a starter; it isn't the EU so who else can it be?

 

[oldgroaner]

What rubs salt in this for me is my situation.
My wife and I have worked all our lives even when we had three kids. I worked days and she worked nights and weekends bur because our pay was really low we elected for her to pay the married woman's stamp (still paying but not as much as a full stamp). The end result of this was that at her retirement age of 60 she had earned a pension of 12 pence per week.

I agree it's terrible, and who is to blame really? the Government of course!

 

[Gubbins]

Again you are making assumptions.. I dont blame the eu for anything ... Wright or wrong I just want out.
I don't mean to be rude but you are coming over like a teacher trying to explain something to a small child.

 

[oldgroaner]

Again you are making assumptions.. I dont blame the eu for anything ... Wright or wrong I just want out.
I don't mean to be rude but you are coming over like a teacher trying to explain something to a small child.

It was not my intention to come over like a teacher, simply to provide you with some information.

Ok why do you want out? lets consider that.

 

[oldgroaner]

Well then all the politicians of both parties should have been honest. I believe we have been lied to all along about the aims and purpose of the Eu .

Not so the intention was there for all to see before it even began
http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/founding-fathers/pdf/winston_churchill_en.pdf
"He formulated his conclusions drawn from the lessons of history in his famous ‘Speech to the academic youth’ held at the University of Zurich in 1946: “There is a remedy which ... would in a few years make all Europe ... free and ... happy. It is to re-create the European family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.”
"His aim was to eliminate the European ills of nationalism and war-mongering once and for all"
Where you unaware of this?

 

[Gubbins]

It was not my intention to come over like a teacher, simply to provide you with some information.

Ok why do you want out? lets consider that.

Sorry, been out for a ride...
OK,
1/ Uncontrolled free movement of people MAY NOT change when we are out, but it definitely WILL NOT change if we stay in.
2/ I watched the debates and found the remain side to be unnecessarily aggressive and personal toward the leaves (especially to BJ)
3/ I didn't like the calling them racist for wanting this control when they know that's not the case.
4/ The arrogance of Cameron and Osborne..
5/ The unbelievable scare stories and threats which are unraveling day by day.
6/ The poles are saying people want to change their minds, but I dont believe a word of it, and we know how accurate polls are anyway

I was in Llandudno recently and stopped for a sit in the sun and was approached by a remain activist. He was very nice and we had an interesting chat about how Wales gets more than they put in so should stay so as a country will probably vote in..
Then this old chap wandered up and stuck a finger in his chest and said.. "My dad was killed in the war fighting to stop the germans taking over and you want to hand it to them on a plate"
And how did Wales vote?

I read about how some multi billionaires have lost a million or two (on paper) and they cant be out of profit so jobs will have to go, but when my pension went tits up I was told that investments go down as well as up and when I took it out interest rates were 15% or so and now they are 2% so my promised £100 a week is only £20.

Just a few thoughts,
and no offence meant about the teacher thing, it was like you were giving me homework to read and then testing me on it.

 

[oldgroaner]

Sorry, been out for a ride...
OK,
1/ Uncontrolled free movement of people MAY NOT change when we are out, but it definitely WILL NOT change if we stay in.
2/ I watched the debates and found the remain side to be unnecessarily aggressive and personal toward the leaves (especially to BJ)
3/ I didn't like the calling them racist for wanting this control when they know that's not the case.
4/ The arrogance of Cameron and Osborne..
5/ The unbelievable scare stories and threats which are unraveling day by day.
6/ The poles are saying people want to change their minds, but I dont believe a word of it, and we know how accurate polls are anyway

I was in Llandudno recently and stopped for a sit in the sun and was approached by a remain activist. He was very nice and we had an interesting chat about how Wales gets more than they put in so should stay so as a country will probably vote in..
Then this old chap wandered up and stuck a finger in his chest and said.. "My dad was killed in the war fighting to stop the germans taking over and you want to hand it to them on a plate"
And how did Wales vote?

I read about how some multi billionaires have lost a million or two (on paper) and they cant be out of profit so jobs will have to go, but when my pension went tits up I was told that investments go down as well as up and when I took it out interest rates were 15% or so and now they are 2% so my promised £100 a week is only £20.

Just a few thoughts,
and no offence meant about the teacher thing, it was like you were giving me homework to read and then testing me on it.

The difficulty with all this is that the lies began when we joined the EU and blamed anything that went wrong on them, for year on year, even though the Government had signed on the dotted line to agree to the laws that were passed, and then When Cameron and Osborne tried to defend it after all the years of blaming it for everything, naturally no one believed them, as they are and always have been liars.
The problem we have now is that once we are no longer protected by the many EU laws that cover paid holidays, health and safety and the environment, the Torys will treat us nothing more that willing mugs, even more than we are being treated already.
As to the countries finances, most of the money is little more than imaginary and a way will be found to fudge it up somehow without doubt.
You can be sure the rich will be richer and we poorer.
My interest in that is minimal, but the welfare of fellow citizens is where my interest lies.
I am not your enemy because i believe you voted in the wrong way but in the same boat that you are, and not liking what I see as likely to happen in the near future.
The vote has literally driven us into the hands of our worst enemies, and the joke we can always vote them out sounds hollow right now.
The government have already said that immigration may increase if they want it to, and I pointed out that they are incompetent to control it even though they have the power to do so.
Who can we vote in instead? when none of them have to guts to say anything that is believable any more?

 

[Gubbins]

The difficulty with all this is that the lies began when we joined the EU and blamed anything that went wrong on them, for year on year, even though the Government had signed on the dotted line to agree to the laws that were passed, and then When Cameron and Osborne tried to defend it after all the years of blaming it for everything, naturally no one believed them, as they are and always have been liars.
The problem we have now is that once we are no longer protected by the many EU laws that cover paid holidays, health and safety and the environment, the Torys will treat us nothing more that willing mugs, even more than we are being treated already.
As to the countries finances, most of the money is little more than imaginary and a way will be found to fudge it up somehow without doubt.
You can be sure the rich will be richer and we poorer.
My interest in that is minimal, but the welfare of fellow citizens is where my interest lies.
I am not your enemy because i believe you voted in the wrong way but in the same boat that you are, and not liking what I see as likely to happen in the near future.
The vote has literally driven us into the hands of our worst enemies, and the joke we can always vote them out sounds hollow right now.
Who can we vote in instead? when none of them have to guts to say anything that is believable any more?

There's always Corbin.. he seems to be trying to break the mold...
The real truth is that no one knows what will happen next.

 

[oldgroaner]

There's always Corbin.. he seems to be trying to break the mold...
The real truth is that no one knows what will happen next.

I had hopes for him, but he needs to oppose Brexit to get my vote I'm afraid as that's where I believe the future lies in the EU
It's true no one KNOWS what will happen next, what we do KNOW is we should not be in this situation but for Cameron being a complete fool and promising the referendum in order to win the General Election, and then making a complete balls up not just in his campaign, but running off afterwards to avoid any Blame, and that goes for Boris, Gove, Farage too.

 

[Gubbins]

I had hopes for him, but he needs to oppose Brexit to get my vote I'm afraid as that's where I believe the future lies in the EU
It's true no one KNOWS what will happen next, what we do KNOW is we should not be in this situation but for Cameron being a complete fool and promising the referendum in order to win the General Election, and then making a complete balls up not just in his campaign, but running off afterwards to avoid any Blame, and that goes for Boris, Gove, Farage too.

I also had hopes for corbin but for the oposite reason. I think he is a leaver at heart but is not allowed to say so.