Should we be suprised by the Brexit victory?

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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While I'm on, I've been disappointed with the whiny attitude to the result of the Remainers.

I voted out, but were I given the opportunity, I would also have voted to accept the result whatever it was and make the best of it.
I don't think it whiny to expect democracy. As you said the margin was very narrow, so I therefore object to those who speak in terms of total departure from the EU. We should and probably will have a democratic compromise reflecting the interests of both halves of the electorate.

The interesting thing will be whether the leavers accept that, when they find only moderate change results.
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eHomer

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I voted brexit because there were only two stark alternatives.

I felt that the consequences of giving my carte blanche one opportunity vote to simply "remain" with the EU as it is heading was slightly worse than leaving.

If there had been a middle option I probably would have taken it, and quite possibly many Brexiters and Remainers would have too, maybe enough to win.......
 
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JuicyBike

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I just found out that 18% of those taking part thought they were voting for breakfast.
 
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Wicky

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I don't think it whiny to expect democracy. As you said the margin was very narrow, so I therefore object to those who speak in terms of total departure from the EU. We should and probably will have a democratic compromise reflecting the interests of both halves of the electorate.

The interesting thing will be whether the leavers accept that, when they find only moderate change results.
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Maybe a Solomon type compromise will eventually come about - We'll only leave by 52% from the EU...
 
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flecc

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Maybe a Solomon type compromise will eventually come about - We'll only leave by 52% from the EU...
It does sound amusing, but we have examples of partial detachment like Norway and Switzerland.

There's also of course the split country division of Denmark in the EU and it's territory of Greenland outside the EU, something that Scotland might wish to pursue in relation to Britain.
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tillson

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There's also of course the split country division of Denmark in the EU and it's territory of Greenland outside the EU, something that Scotland might wish to pursue in relation to Britain.
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Scotland voted to be part of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union.

It's about time this sunk in and we got on with the task at hand.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Scotland voted to be part of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union.
When the UK was in the EU. Now with the voting to leave the EU so soon after Scotland's decision, the Scots may as a separate country choose to change their decision in the light of the drastically changed circumstance.

It would help if the nomenclature was right, Scotland didn't in truth vote on being in the United Kingdom since they made it clear they would retain the throne and be united in loyalty to it.

Their referendum in title terms was about ending the title Great Britain. When they joined Britain originally the word Great was added to Britain to reflect the larger area, nothing to do with status as so many seem to think. More accurately it should have been named Greater Britain back then. Britain had previously been and still is just England and Wales. If Scotland leaves, Great Britain will no longer exist, but the United Kingdom will continue and in terms of the Kingdom will include Scotland.
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tillson

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When the UK was in the EU. Now with the voting to leave the EU so soon after Scotland's decision, the Scots may as a separate country choose to change their decision in the light of the drastically changed circumstance.

It would help if the nomenclature was right, Scotland didn't in truth vote on being in the United Kingdom since they made it clear they would retain the throne and be united in loyalty to it.

Their referendum in title terms was about ending the title Great Britain. When they joined Britain originally the word Great was added to Britain to reflect the larger area, nothing to do with status as so many seem to think. More accurately it should have been named Greater Britain back then. Britain had previously been and still is just England and Wales. If Scotland leaves, Great Britain will no longer exist, but the United Kingdom will continue and in terms of the Kingdom will include Scotland.
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I don't think it's right to keep having vote after vote after vote every time something changes. The Scots have made their decision.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I don't think it's right to keep having vote after vote after vote every time something changes. The Scots have made their decision.
For the majority of changes, especialy internal, I agree, but this is no routine change. I think all are agreed that this move by the UK is a game changer and a momentous decision on an almost unprecedented scale.

I think the scale of this justifies Scotland having a fresh chance, if they wish it. After all, as a separate country that volunteered to join with Britain, they have the moral right to leave again at any time they wish.
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tillson

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For the majority of changes, especialy internal, I agree, but this is no routine change. I think all are agreed that this move by the UK is a game changer and a momentous decision on an almost unprecedented scale.

I think the scale of this justifies Scotland having a fresh chance, if they wish it. After all, as a separate country that volunteered to join with Britain, they have the moral right to leave again at any time they wish.
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They will never survive once they lose the pound and sever ties with the Bank of England. I doubt that the EU would allow them to join. On their own they have very little to offer.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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They will never survive once they lose the pound and sever ties with the Bank of England. I doubt that the EU would allow them to join. On their own they have very little to offer.
Yes, I certainly wouldn't argue that their possible move would be wise, but I'm happy for them to make their own mistakes.

They'd survive since they are a resilient lot and have a very long history of coping against the odds, but it could be tough.
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KeithMac

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I was chatting to my old school friend who lives in Edinburgh and his Scottish partner last week, both rolled their eyes at the though of another Scotland exit referendum..

EU has said they wouldn't be interested in Scotland as a member on it's own (obviously nothing for them to pillage, sorry redistribute ;)).
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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EU has said they wouldn't be interested in Scotland as a member on it's own
You can ignore that, it's just politics, the EU members only willing to discuss the UK departure in isolation. Then afterwards they'll deal with Scotland if required to, as ever wanting to take any extra bit of territory into the union. From Luxembourg to trying to include Norway, they've always shown willing to include countries smaller than Scotland.
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I actually forecast a win for the leave camp, despite being completely against that, though I was in fact wrong in expecting it to be a much more emphatic result.
The reason for this feeling was the knowledge that it has been the policy of successive Governments here to lay the blame for everything that they do that goes wrong against the EU.
They have been a party to every rule and regulation that has come from there yet lied about their complicity in agreeing and adding their signature on the dotted line.
This appears to apply to all parties in the Westminster lunatic Asylum.
And then there is our Glorious "free press" which is better describes as not free but available for a fee.
How for instance can it convert an agreement over fishing rights originated by this country to curb foreign trawlers devastating fish stocks in the North Sea as a Plot to destroy our fishing industry, and succeed in kidding most of our Fishermen that that is indeed the case?
"The Big Lie" has been pretty nearly successful and applied constantly for 30 years or so has turned the EU into a Whipping Boy for Parliament.
The supreme irony is that when that imbecile Cameron tried to use a referendum to ward off a loss of votes to the UKIP, his own lies have caught up with him and his defence of the EU sounded utterly false
The referendum has been subverted by a generation of lies that have polluted the political scene.
The general public discontent has been used and abused by the idiot politicians fronting the leave campaign for furthering their own squalid careers making lies seem like some fundamental truth and promising all will be well and it's "Free Beer Tomorrow" with no plan as to how to do.
And now we see them deserting the field where there is a possibility of taking the reins and carrying the flak for the damage they have done.
How very brave and public spirited of them!
Ironically the Government itself didn't make any either, which is dereliction of duty on a galactic scale,
The Majority Vote was against the the EU (depicted as the villain of the peace,) and when Cameron and Osborne came out suddenly in it's defence, after blaming it for their lack of control of events the vote really represented a public desire to kick them in the testicles
Europe is in fact far better off without us. I wish them well, while for us, I just hope we put in a spurt on the Growing up and facing reality front.
Hopefully when sanity returns and we try to apply for membership, we will be an honest member of the community and not just a troublemaker.
Remember the only legislation that has effected the well being, rights, safety and improved the environment for most peoples lifetimes have all come out of the EU
Now we have delivered ourselves into the hands of our worst enemies.
And all through lies.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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To answer the OP's question, no, we should not be surprised.

The only surprise to me was the margin was so narrow.

I have long thought the general populace is fed up with EU meddling and would boot it into touch given the chance.

The surprise to me was we were given the chance.

Those who make their (non) living from pointless bureaucracy were unlikely to give us the opportunity to vote for less of it.

While I'm on, I've been disappointed with the whiny attitude to the result of the Remainers.

I voted out, but were I given the opportunity, I would also have voted to accept the result whatever it was and make the best of it.
It wasn't the EU that was meddling our Government signed off everything that happened then denied it had done so.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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I don't think it whiny to expect democracy. As you said the margin was very narrow, so I therefore object to those who speak in terms of total departure from the EU. We should and probably will have a democratic compromise reflecting the interests of both halves of the electorate.

The interesting thing will be whether the leavers accept that, when they find only moderate change results.
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Isn't that like being a bit pregnant ???
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,161
30,578
Isn't that like being a bit pregnant ???
No, there are many different possible relationships with the EU while not being a member.

At one extreme there's the Norwegian one which is most close to matching our referendum's indecisive result.

At the other extreme there's Vladimir Putin's Russia.
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