Should it be legal....?

[Kudoscycles]

The subject of illegal bikes seems to resurrect itself constantly on this forum and seems a completely split attitude amongst members....there seems one group who have a 'I couldn't care attitude and will do what I like and mind your own business'....there is another group who are determined to keep these bikes legal,the problem is that the former group could have devastating consequences on the latter if there were an accident....imagine if an illegal e-bike hit and killed a child doing 28 mph down a cycle track,we would all be tarred with the same brush.
Not that I would wish such an event (I have 2 beautiful grandchildren aged 3 and 2) but ironically that would hasten the introduction of EN15194,all the illegal producers would be out of business immediately and home builds would have to go through expensive testing-this will probably come along anyway and those posting on this site who openly state that their bikes are illegal are hastening the day that EN15194 is introduced,something about shooting themselves in the foot!
Out of interest Frank your e-bay posting states 7day test rides on a 1500 watt,28 mph bike-do you have a private test track to demonstrate this powerful motorbike?For that is what it is a MOTORBIKE.
Something I cannot get my head around,is what is the point? By the time you have bought the 1500 watt bike,you have to get it SVA tested,registered,put a number plate upon....you will have spent minmum £1600-£2000. For £1650.00 you can buy a brand new,registered,taxed 2011 Honda Vision Moped...146mpg,built by Honda,2 years warranty and breakdown cover,completely legal,easy to insure,no danger of illegal litigation,full weather protection etc etc!!!!!!
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[morphix]

The subject of illegal bikes seems to resurrect itself constantly on this forum and seems a completely split attitude amongst members....there seems one group who have a 'I couldn't care attitude and will do what I like and mind your own business'....there is another group who are determined to keep these bikes legal,the problem is that the former group could have devastating consequences on the latter if there were an accident....imagine if an illegal e-bike hit and killed a child doing 28 mph down a cycle track,we would all be tarred with the same brush.
Not that I would wish such an event (I have 2 beautiful grandchildren aged 3 and 2) but ironically that would hasten the introduction of EN15194,all the illegal producers would be out of business immediately and home builds would have to go through expensive testing-this will probably come along anyway and those posting on this site who openly state that their bikes are illegal are hastening the day that EN15194 is introduced,something about shooting themselves in the foot!
Out of interest Frank your e-bay posting states 7day test rides on a 1500 watt,28 mph bike-do you have a private test track to demonstrate this powerful motorbike?For that is what it is a MOTORBIKE.
Something I cannot get my head around,is what is the point? By the time you have bought the 1500 watt bike,you have to get it SVA tested,registered,put a number plate upon....you will have spent minmum £1600-£2000. For £1650.00 you can buy a brand new,registered,taxed 2011 Honda Vision Moped...146mpg,built by Honda,2 years warranty and breakdown cover,completely legal,easy to insure,no danger of illegal litigation,full weather protection etc etc!!!!!!
Dave
KudosCycles

Dave you hit the nail on the head there, about all being tarred with the same brush. I think that is why some on the strictly legal advocacy side have such strong feelings on this issue.. cause what the other side does, or one big incident like you describe, could affect them and put our relaxed ebike regulation at jeopardy. That said, I think we know most of the people on here are very sensible with their bikes and don't do anything to attract attention or put themselves or others in danger. Problem is we can't be sure everyone is like that! From what I've seen on YouTube some are very much using them like motorbikes on the roads and that is a real worry. I hope the day doesn't come when we get regulated, and if something should happen they will leave ordinary legal bikes alone and focus onto legislation for the manufacturing/retailing side.

 

[Steady]

Wurly its nice to see new builds I personally have learnt a lot from them, and Pedelec is a great forum. There are always posts I dont agree with but I can be flexible and decide for myself what I want to read.
When it all gets a bit too much theres always endless sphere which is another good source of information.

 

[Haku]

The most asked question I get about my ebike(s) (after "is that an electric bike?") is "how fast does it go", the reactions I get from saying legally ebikes aren't allowed to power you above 15mph are ones of disappointment but when I say mine has a derestricted throttle and can get to 20mph on the flat without pedalling* their interest rises.

*at the moment I'd be lucky to get to 15mph without pedalling, all my batteries are pretty much shot

 

[flecc]

The most asked question I get about my ebike(s) (after "is that an electric bike?") is "how fast does it go", the reactions I get from saying legally ebikes aren't allowed to power you above 15mph are ones of disappointment but when I say mine has a derestricted throttle and can get to 20mph on the flat without pedalling their interest rises.

That's what I experience too, and so do lots of others judging by what they post in here. Trouble is that last section describes a motor vehicle, electric bike rather than legal electric assist bike.

 

[cwah]

All these problems remember me an anecdote.

Initially when I was looking at ebike, everybody at work was laughing at me. They said it was for old people.

Then I purchased my first ebike on ebay. This one was incredibly slow. And they were laughing again at me because of the speed. They said that they don't need a bike to reach the same speed as I do.

Now I changed the bike and have something faster, with a better look. And reaction is different: people are staring at my bike, and they want to try it. When I say I can reach 34km/h. They say something like "that's not bad".


I've read a lot about the small ebike market. But again, if bikes are designed as electric assist, then it's going to target people that need "assistance". So just a very specific part of the population.
For the other part, they are looking at something like a light moped and regulation doesn't exist yet. But I think the need is here and therefore a possibility to expand in this area.

And I believe, this is this later part of the population that will make the ebike popular. Not sure it will be for the good or the bad in term of legislation, but I believe it would be of strong interest for many people purchasing small folding bike for commuting.

 

[amigafan2003]

By the time you have bought the 1500 watt bike,you have to get it SVA tested,registered,put a number plate upon....you will have spent minmum £1600-£2000. For £1650.00 you can buy a brand new,registered,taxed

You don't HAVE to get it taxed, insured and registered

The same as you don't HAVE to only do 70mph down the motorway at 2am

What you do HAVE to do is live with the consequences if an enforcer of the law catches you doing it

2011 Honda Vision Moped...146mpg,built by Honda,2 years warranty and breakdown cover,completely legal,easy to insure,no danger of illegal litigation,full weather protection etc etc!!!!!!

And I'll tell you why I'm not interested in motorbike - I like riding down Blackpool prom - a shared cycle/pedestrian* route that stretches 15miles traffic free. Of my 9 mile commute, only 1.5miles is on the road.

*And before anyone says it, I'm careful about my speed when pedestrians are about, often voluntarily dropping to 10mph. But when it's 7am on the way to work and no peds - let the throttle be pegged open

 

[flecc]

I've read a lot about the small ebike market. But again, if bikes are designed as electric assist, then it's going to target people that need "assistance". So just a very specific part of the population.
For the other part, they are looking at something like a light moped and regulation doesn't exist yet. But I think the need is here and therefore a possibility to expand in this area.

That is very true cwah, although other provisions exist to some extent.

There is the EU wide "low power moped" class which is for throttle controlled powered pedal cycles of up to 1000 watts rating, but still restricted to 15 mph/25 kph. This class suits those who want more assistance such as for hill climbing or overcoming disability, but are not interested in extra speed.

Then there are the high speed 40 kph/25 mph and higher powered e-bike classes in Germany. These are available to any EU country, but each country's government has to legislate to permit them as the Bundestag has for Germany. Unfortunately no other EU country seems to have an appetite for that.

All these classes have some legal restrictions like registration and other measures.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Do we want to end up like China?- many Chinese cities have decided to ban these machines. Shenzhen city instituted an e-bike prohibition last June and plans to continue it through at least December. The trial ban could be extended after reviewing the effect on safety for pedestrians – the most salient reason for the law.

Traffic accidents involving e-bikes have been worsening. There are over 500,000 e-bike riders in the city, and according to the Shenzhen traffic bureau, 64 people were killed and 233 were injured in 268 accidents caused by e-bikes in 2010. The vehicles accounted for 15.7% of all road accidents.

This number indicates that e-bikes are more dangerous than other vehicles. But that’s not necessarily true. The driving habits of e-bike owners are one reason for the high level of accidents. Riders are notorious for ignoring traffic regulations, riding without helmets, and breaking the speed limit.

What’s more, scooters are often sold as e-bikes, which do not require registration or licensing. Many of the victims involved in e-bike crashes are vulnerable, subject to hit-and-run riders and often unprotected by laws or by health insurance.

Many blue collar workers, couriers, deliverymen, laborers, and students rely on e-bikes for their primary means of transportation. Given the conditions and usage patterns, e- bike bans have a heavy impact on their daily lives and their livelihoods. According to Chinese news reports, e-bike riders are reluctant to criticize the bans because policymakers don’t consider their circumstances and their needs.

Riders have also complained about unrealistic traffic laws affecting their machines. The speed limit of 20 kilometers per hour (12 mph), and weight restriction of 40 kilograms (88 lbs), were set as national standards in 1999. Compared with other nation’s regulations, Chinese people strongly feel that 20 km/hr is too slow. (Other limits include 30 km/hr in Singapore, most of Europe at 25 km/hr, 31 km/hr in the U.S., and 24-25 km/hr in Japan and Korea)

Chinese experts also point out that 40 kg is also behind current capabilities and components added in the current fleet of e-bikes produced in China.

Chinese consumers will likely continue to ride heavier e- bikes with higher speeds. In general, bikes at 35-40 km/hr and 50 kg in weight, at a price of around RMB 2,500 ($390), are the popular levels that consumers in China are seeking. In the meantime, a realistic effort to create effective norms would help to achieve the government’s original goals for e-bike penetration. With public hearings and listening to public opinion, I expect that the re-designed program could be the step to be user-friendly and eco-friendly machines that also ensure public safety.

Reported elsewhere are that central chinese government wants to ban lead acid batteries but at the moment Lithium is too expensive and battery manufacturers are not ready to satisfy such a demand. There are 120 million e-bikes in China,99% are lead acid,causing massive pollution manufacture and disposal problems and deaths from lead poisoning,over 25 million new bikes are sold each year (compare this to 1 million in rest of the world),there are 4000 plus e-bike deaths every year mostly on fast high powered bikes....I noticed that most of the riding seemed to be on the roads,not sure what would be the toll if they rode on the pavements as well!

Dave
KudosCycles

 

[flecc]

A note on that quoted USA speed limit. There, as in Australia and some other countries, national legislation can be varied by states. Thus in the USA the federal laws for 20 mph and 700 watts vary widely in practice. Some states permit higher speeds, many permit higher powers, while two states have an outright ban on e-bikes.

In Australia the state of Victoria is currently considering adopting EU law on ebikes in place of their national law which limits rated power to 200 watts, the old British limit.

Canada is divided into 11 legal jurisdictions, one being the capital one, Ottawa, and this may affect e-bike law.

 

[mike killay]

Dave,
That is a fascinating report. But I thought that lead/acid batteries were mainly recyclable?
Nevertheless, the Chinese experience of what are really unregulated mopeds is a warning to what could happen here. I could envisage the Police stopping bikes and testing them there and then. Any that went faster than 15mph would be seized.

 

[lessped]

The ratings on the motor are a crock of **** anyway. The way most electrical systems work they all use over the rated amount.

If they didn't everyone here with a legal spec 250w would be moaning there all useless and don't provide enough help up hills.
Speed is the main issue and the type of riding. 15mph in a busy area is dangerous. 15mph on the road is quite slow.

In anycase I want to be able to choose what I buy. I don't want any more help from people telling menwhat I should or should not buy because they've said so.

Fact is I'd rather have those people using something over the limit and be sensible and use the bike for its purpose than another car driver blocking up the roads.

I'm with flecc on being allowed to buy what I like. Then it can be up to me what I do with it.

I don't know why people want more legislation and less freedom.

Fair enough but i think there is a fine line between doing what we want and anarchy . ..just a thought .!

 

[Scottyf]

I'm not sure any cyclists, well ebike cyclists can be grouped into any anarchy.
Very few minor members that will remain a niche Market for years to come.

What happened in china can no way relate to the uk. They are worlds apart from infrastructure, right the way through to beliefs.

I'm not saying I disagree with all your comments I agree with most and understand the safety concerns. I also would never want to harm another innocent bystander that was minding there own business. But then I guess I have thought through the eventualities and possibilities combined with my own skill and riding ability and made a judgment call between what I'd need and suitable and what's safe. I guess I've used the law more as a guideline. But I don't disregard it at all.

People doing hideous speeds on v brakes in the wet on a bike that was not designed to go that quick worries me. I'm still travelling speeds I can unassisted. However I can now do it for longer on an ebike that's matched to my own riding ability.

Like I posted before I even upped my brakes when I felt they did not respond well enough over winter. I had a new front wheel built witch Alan supplied and new disk brakes.
I don't see myself any more dangerous than an unassisted rider.

Infect I probably think about safty more knowing I have an ebike. As I'm carrying around 660watt of lipo about.

 

[johnc461165]

I ride my Aurora its illegal but I love it to bits. Morons steal cars crash into others, get chased by police do drugs etc and get virtually no punishment, so if I am a bad guy I will do my few hours of community service.

 

[tillson]

You don't HAVE to get it taxed, insured and registered

The same as you don't HAVE to only do 70mph down the motorway at 2am

What you do HAVE to do is live with the consequences if an enforcer of the law catches you doing it



And I'll tell you why I'm not interested in motorbike - I like riding down Blackpool prom - a shared cycle/pedestrian* route that stretches 15miles traffic free. Of my 9 mile commute, only 1.5miles is on the road.

*And before anyone says it, I'm careful about my speed when pedestrians are about, often voluntarily dropping to 10mph. But when it's 7am on the way to work and no peds - let the throttle be pegged open

..........and this, members of the forum, is why we are going to lose the ebike freedoms that we currently enjoy. No matter what you advocate, there will always be people who will do what they want to do, when and where they want to do it. They are cocooned in a strongly held belief that only their immediate personal needs are important and that the consequences of their actions on other people are of secondary importance. Any attempt at pointing out the ileagl nature of their actions is usually met by them quoting examples of wrong doing by other people. They try to find cases of law breaking that are in, their opinion, more serious than their own. Armed with this, "evidence" they then assume the moral high-ground and contrast their trivial law breaking with that of more serious crime committed by real villains.

The truth is that theses people are damaging the reputation of ebikes and their users. As they continue to grow in number, the rate of damage will also increase. And the awful thing is, as in a lot of other areas of society, they simply do not care. As long as they can continue to point the finger at others and satisfy their own immediate desires, they will do so.

 

[amigafan2003]

..........and this, members of the forum, is why we are going to lose the ebike freedoms that we currently enjoy.

If you think the restrictions imposed on ebikes are freedoms then you need to open your eyes.

Any attempt at pointing out the ileagl nature of their actions is usually met by them quoting examples of wrong doing by other people.

I disagree - I'm fully aware I have an "illegal" ebike and that I ride it illegally. However, I do not need some jumped up civil servant or law maker telling me what I am safe or not safe to do - I'm quite capable of knowing what I'm capable of. I can ride my bike at 20mph without assistance to work and back no problem - I just chose the assistance to reduce fatigue. What difference does it make if I ride my bike at 20mph assisted or unassisted - apart from the fact that one is legal and the other currently illegal?

They try to find cases of law breaking that are in, their opinion, more serious than their own. Armed with this, "evidence" they then assume the moral high-ground and contrast their trivial law breaking with that of more serious crime committed by real villains.

Well, you do have degrees of criminality, why else would we have variable sentencing?


Are people not aware that the governments proposal of raising the motorway speed limit to 80mph was initiated by a minister stating "everyone does 80mph anyway"?

Have you thought that if more people rode "illegal" ebikes in a safe and responsible manner then that would demonstrate how unwarranted the 15.5mph/250watt limit law currently is? As I said - we should challenge stupid laws, not follow them like dutiful sheep.

Riding ebikes responsibly with care for other road/route users will further our cause far more than mindlessly sticking to arbitrary rules.

 

[funkylyn]

After following this thread with dismay at times, I have to ask......how many eBikers do we think there actually are at the moment ?
Just what percentage of them are speed maniacs whizzing around busy roads/paths being a danger to the public ?
How many " they's " are there do we think.....10 ? 100? 1000? 10000?.......I've certainly never encountered any "theys" in 8 years of eBike riding.......how many are we talking about......how big is this problem at the moment, does anyone know ???
Do we really think "they" are going to breed and become a really really serious problem to the eBiker world in reality?.....really ?

Arent most of us pretty much law abiding citizens.....cant we just occasionally have a little lapse.....we are all human......I did 37mph downhill the other day.....scared myself half to death, but the road was dry, empty of traffic and I made a considered decision to give it a go, just as I did when I put the brakes on and decided the 50mph club wasnt really for me !

I know, I know, it would only take one accident to bring us unwanted public and government attention, but quite honestly I feel we should be more concerned with, say, exploding batteries.....because it seems to me there is more chance of harming an innocent person with those packs of power we all love, than anything else.

Im only asking out of interest because I just wonder if all this angst and testosterone is worth upsetting each other......or do we all just love a good argument......

Anyway......who thinks we should wear a helmet and have fitted seat belts lol ?......ducking

Lynda

 

[Fordulike]

yawn.......

 

[flecc]

If you think the restrictions imposed on ebikes are freedoms then you need to open your eye.

It is undeniably a freedom. Vehicles with a drive motor are motor vehicles with all that implies, but e-bike law takes the form of an exemption from motor vehicle laws. That's a freedom which users of many other light motor vehicles would dearly love to have. Freedom from registration, freedom from a number plate, freedom from VED, freedom from insurance, freedom from helmet wearing, freedom from parking restrictions, freedom from roads-only use, even freedom from UK road speed limits!

 

[flecc]

yawn.......

What's this? The year is less than three days old and you're already tired!