Shock warning! Should we ask for Registration?

[Geebee]

Yet again I have to repeat myself GeeBee. It's about theft prevention not on road detection. As I've posted so many times, having to have a registration document and number plates prevents worthwhile sale, so prevents theft in that way. The number plate does not need to be huge or prominent, just fitted, since it's not about detection of mobile offences like speeding etc as it is with motor vehicles.

The key thing is the owner's registration document, without which the bike, just like a car or moped, is practically unsaleable.

I fully understand what you are suggesting and the idea is good, although I doubt it will make much difference, as getting any amount of money will be enough to make people steal them anyway, just look on any bike forum people steal $60 Xmart bikes all the time.
Plus once the registration idea comes in I suspect what I talked about will be the unfortunate end result, I am fairly certain it would be in Oz.

A good lock and an alarm system might be about the best defence, not ideal but better than nothing.

 

[daudi]

[...] A good lock and an alarm system might be about the best defence, not ideal but better than nothing.

And that for me is good reason to pursue this idea. I see it as a trade-off between one form of freedom and another. People are saying that they do not want more regulation and intrusion into their lives, but by accepting a small amount of effort to register a bike we could get to the point where we could be free of the bl**dy D-lock.

Registration would be done once and take just a few minutes. A light-weight lock might still be needed to deter thieves who steal for mischief, but not having to carry a heavy lock around every day would, for me, be a real freedom.

 

[johnc461165]

Extract from Theft UK website.

General: The latest British Crime Survey figures, published by the Home Office in October 2010, revealed that car crime was down by 16% to 479,000 reported incidents in the 12 months to June 2010.

That's with all the technology,logbooks,registration etc.

 

[funkylyn]

Many have Lynda. Some just from memory alone, member themutiny (Nick) has lost seven family bikes including his beloved eZee Torq 1 with a brand new battery. Member Nigel lost his Lafree to theft at Southampton. Member cwah has reported his anger and concern at the thefts he's suffered. There have been many others which I don't remember in detail.

As I posted earlier, just over 50,000 daily bike journeys are made in London, and the annual bike thefts are over 20,000 now. That is an immense problem, and that is only the reported thefts. Many don't bother to report them to the police knowing it's a waste of time, so the true total could be double.

Nationally it's similar.
.

Then surely the onus is on us all to be more vigilant ourselves and not rely on a nanny state 'solving' our problems by even more legislation......I honestly do not believe that a registration system for a bike will stop it being stolen.

Surely to goodness we can, and should, be responsible for looking after our own bikes without official interference......it cant be that difficult........why this seemingly constant need for officialdom to "help" us out all the time. .

When you have something you love you try your hardest to look after it and keep it safe,if you fail you have to take responsibility for that yourself and try harder the next time.......isnt that life ?

Lynda

 

[johnone]

If a thief is locked up he is unable to steal.

 

[Blew it]

A good idea, but no thanks

Registration of bicycles is not new, Ken Livingstone first mooted the idea in 2006. Not for the purpose of reducing theft, but to identify pavement-riding cyclists. London cycling campaign groups were not slow in opening their gun-ports.

2009 saw the Scottish Parliament attempting to introduce bicycle use taxation, again, not as a deterrent to theft, but an additional revenue stream....it never got a second reading.

These are just two examples out of many similar proposals, all of which were defeated by the public's distrust of politicians....give 'em an inch and they'll take a yard.

Perhaps it would be better to tackle the cause rather than the effect. If fueling hard-core drug use is part of the problem, then I know a very good equine vetinary who will happily dispatch them for fifty quid a head! sorted!

Plug-in electric scooters are subjected to a one-time registration fee of around £55, this usually included in the ticket price of the machine. Why should cyclists pay £10....... every year?

 

[smudger1956]

Yet again I have to repeat myself GeeBee. It's about theft prevention not on road detection. As I've posted so many times, having to have a registration document and number plates prevents worthwhile sale, so prevents theft in that way. The number plate does not need to be huge or prominent, just fitted, since it's not about detection of mobile offences like speeding etc as it is with motor vehicles.

The key thing is the owner's registration document, without which the bike, just like a car or moped, is practically unsaleable.

It's about theft prevention not on road detection
If my 'registered' bike was stolen..I would expect some effort in 'theft recovery from road detection' for my costs in registration.

 

[flecc]

I doubt the government would be interested in this,the registration of motor bikes and cars all help to bring in extra revenue from fuel tax, road tax and speeding fines and parking fines plus tax revenue from the insurance companies,a change of ownership document is free,the goverment soon get the money back from car tax and motoring fines .where would the goverment make money from £10 electric bike registrations,and giving free change of ownership documents.

They would really welcome a very large drop in bike theft, which as I've pointed out, has now become a political embarrassment. That would be the benefit, the £10 easily covering the costs. Many if not most will renew tax online at very low cost annually, so it's only to cover the cost of ownership change recording.

 

[flecc]

Extract from Theft UK website.

General: The latest British Crime Survey figures, published by the Home Office in October 2010, revealed that car crime was down by 16% to 479,000 reported incidents in the 12 months to June 2010.

That's with all the technology,logbooks,registration etc.

With respect John, that's very misleading and typical of so many statistics. That's not car thefts, most of it will be all manner of things like stealing from cars. It's a bit like the way road deaths and serious injuries are lumped together to make the figure much bigger. The deaths are only a very small part of the total and the "serious" injuries have a very low level classification. It's called propaganda.

 

[flecc]

It's about theft prevention not on road detection
If my 'registered' bike was stolen..I would expect some effort in 'theft recovery from road detection' for my costs in registration.

Why? Many would save that much in any insurance bought and the top quality heavy locks that didn't have to be bought.

 

[flecc]

Then surely the onus is on us all to be more vigilant ourselves and not rely on a nanny state 'solving' our problems by even more legislation......I honestly do not believe that a registration system for a bike will stop it being stolen.

Surely to goodness we can, and should, be responsible for looking after our own bikes without official interference......it cant be that difficult........why this seemingly constant need for officialdom to "help" us out all the time. .

When you have something you love you try your hardest to look after it and keep it safe,if you fail you have to take responsibility for that yourself and try harder the next time.......isnt that life ?

Lynda

Can't be done Lynda. A commuter who has to park his bike every day, all day is often the victim, and nothing they can do will prevent current thefts. As is often said, if they want it they'll take it. It's the selling on deterrent that can work to stop most of it, removing the gain.

 

[flecc]

If a thief is locked up he is unable to steal.

Already answered John, prison costs more per week than most of these scrotes steal, so that "solution" is sheer madness. Instead of costing ourselves all that extra money, we might just as well increase the benefits they partly live on to reduce the desire to steal. Equally daft of course!

 

[flecc]

Well, I expected widespread opposition and anticipated every one of these objections. Much is centred on objection to more bureaucracy, distrust of government and the added burden, most missing the point of the benefits. As for these objections, just consider this about the days when we had over a million power-assisted bicycles on British roads in the 1950s. Because they had tiny petrol motors, the following applied:

1) Registration with a full size motorcycle rear number plate.

2) Provisional motorcycle licence since few were qualified already.

3) Full size L plates front and rear.

4) To get rid of those, a full motorcycle driving test had to be passed.

5) Driving licences had to be renewed and paid for every year.

6) Road tax as it was then, renewed and paid for every year.

7) Licence holder and tax disc had to fixed on the bike, motorcycle fashion.

8) Third party insurance compulsory and renewed every year.

9) Driving licence and insurance certificate had to be carried when riding.

10) Nothing online then of course, much meant queuing at Post Offices etc.

Yet despite this huge burden they were immensely popular as said, outnumbering our e-bikes by nearly ten times, and most did take and pass their motorbike driving test. And their bikes didn't get stolen.

But here you are kicking up this huge fuss about just a registration which the dealer does anyway, a mini number plate which the dealer provides, and a few seconds online renewal annual tax of a tenner which would more than pay for itself in many ways.

That famed former stiff upper lip seems to be quivering these days!
.

 

[neptune]

I have found this to be a very interesting debate .However , it is not really very different to the thread I started about speed limiters and tachographs in cars , and indeed microchips in the neck .What it comes down to , is how much personal freedom we are willing to relinquish , for the benefit of society as a whole . I remember some of the Lycra boys discussing some expensive bike mod , it may have been aerofoil shaped frame tubes . It was said that the improvement was equivalent to removing an object the size of a pencil from the airstream .So they are not going to be too pleased about having a billboard sized number plate on the back acting as a parachute of the type used to slow fighter planes on landing . Most of the people I know who ride bikes have low priced bikes that they use for commuting and local journeys , to save petrol if they have a car . These low priced bikes are constantly being stolen .A friend had two such bikes stolen from her backyard in a week . In fact I think that some people steal a bike to replace the one they had stolen . My daughter went into town on her bike . She locked it , and when she came back to it the key broke off in her lock . She walked home , and phoned me . The bike was in the middle of a busy shopping area . I broke the lock by beating it into submission with a big hammer . It took me ten minutes . Passers by didn`t take any notice of what I was doing .

 

[funkylyn]

Can't be done Lynda. A commuter who has to park his bike every day, all day is often the victim, and nothing they can do will prevent current thefts. As is often said, if they want it they'll take it. It's the selling on deterrent that can work to stop most of it, removing the gain.

Then commuters need to discuss the possibility at work of more secure parking for their bikes.....take responsibility.
Registration will not stop thefts.....I believe more are done for the sheer hell of it,or merely wanting it for themselves, than the financial gain of selling on.

As I said, we all just have to try to be more diligent in looking after what we want to keep......whether its a dog, bike or partner....

Lynda

 

[flecc]

they are not going to be too pleased about having a billboard sized number plate on the back acting as a parachute of the type used to slow fighter planes on landing .

I did say mini numberplate though, not remotely as you describe of course. There is precedent again, the plates used on the Guernsey scheme mentioned before were a very small mudguard clip-on type. There's no need for a large number plate, they are about static identification and cross linking to log books, not on-road detection of speeding, escaping bank robbers etc.

 

[eddieo]

I posted a picture recently of German S class bike with numberplate...It was about 5x4 inches

 

[flecc]

Then commuters need to discuss the possibility at work of more secure parking for their bikes.....take responsibility.
Registration will not stop thefts.....I believe more are done for the sheer hell of it,or merely wanting it for themselves, than the financial gain of selling on.

As I said, we all just have to try to be more diligent in looking after what we want to keep......whether its a dog, bike or partner....

Lynda

Already covered Lynda, when as I said only lockable bike cabinets really work. We have some, and they cost far more than £10 a year.

And you are ignoring everything else said before. Those who grab something as you put it "just for the hell of it" don't carry bolt cutters, they just grab the odd occasional bike that's not locked.

You are definitely wrong about the theft causes, it's well established by the police that the bulk are stolen for gain, joy riding etc being a tiny part as I've posted repeatedly. I'm not looking to cure all ills, just stopping the great majority of the thefts, and this measure would do that.

Just as no-one will buy a moped or car without a log book and number plates, nor would they buy a bike like that once this was law.

 

[mike killay]

There seem to be two separate provisions here,
1 A number plate and ownership log book.
2 The ability to detect the bike using automatic number plate recognition equipment.

If the plate is to be small and unobtrusive, ANPR equipment will not recognise it. (I remember seeing small plates on the side of Swiss bikes in the 1950's) As the sole purpose will be to identify the bike and make it very difficult to sell it on if stolen, then it might be better to bar code everything on the bike. A quick scan of any part that is in dispute will reveal the owner it is registered to. Because of the power of computers, the bar codes would not need to be the same ones on every part, replacement parts would be registered to you by the dealer. I must say that I am rather enthusiastic about this possibility.It will not answer the 'steal it for myself' problem, but would stop the 'steal and sell it' one.
If we follow option two and have plates big enough to be easily read automatically, then we do not prevent such bikes being 'upgraded ' with stolen parts.
The only real problem for option one is to develop a bar code system which is not easily forged.

 

[flecc]

There seem to be two separate provisions here,
1 A number plate and ownership log book.
2 The ability to detect the bike using automatic number plate recognition equipment.

No, the ANPR was only a suggestion I threw in, the two elements are the registration document (log book) and the number plate tied in to that. Those would stop the bulk of the theft for gain as I've already described.

ANPR isn't at all vital, this is not about detection after theft which doesn't interest me, it's about theft prevention in the first place. For that reason bar codes don't work since they don't prevent a bike being stolen. Thieves knowing that a bike has to have the log book recording the owner and that tied to the number plate will not view the theft as worthwhile and they'll move on to the next easiest target area, whatever that is.

The sheer scale of bike theft now shows that most of the end buyers have to be people who regard themselves as fairly honest (whatever that means!). The days of flogging the odd one in a pub are long past. there are middlemen in the theft sales system which leads to more respectable buyers. They will buy a bike at present and not worry too much about the provenance, but once this system is in, those fairly respectable people will not buy without a log book and plates any more than they would buy a moped or car that way.

Losing that end customer base means a log jam of stolen bikes quickly blocking the present theft sale system, so bringing that thieving to a halt. I can see this boosting the legitimate second-hand market to compensate.
.