Shock warning! Should we ask for Registration?

[eTim]

There's evidence that a large proportion of bike thefts are just those you mention at the outset. For example, bikes are an obvious target for such as drug users who need to feed daily habits, and our cities have them by the thousand.

As observed, bikes and even e-bikes are too low a value for professional thieves, shipping abroad and the like. We already know that in the car field they have to concentrate on high end cars, the average hatchback isn't worth enough, so bikes certainly won't be. Likewise cloning and false number plates, the cost too high for the returns. Remember, thieves need quick returns so sell low, even high end bikes could only fetch much smaller amounts than their true value.

Breaking for parts is a very small part of the problem, indeed it's tiny since it only affects high end stuff, and I don't claim a universal panacea. I'm just concerned with the main problem, theft of whole bikes by the sort of individuals mentioned and small gangs, both looking for quick returns. This would crack that problem.

Security marking is a dead duck, practically useless. The police have shown no competence in using it and anyway, it does not identify a bike visually or readily show who the owner is. In contrast, the police love ANPR and use it profusely, and it would apply to bikes as well if Swansea administered. A reported-as-stolen bike would immediately be detected from a police vehicle, or if the plate is registered to a black Kalkhoff as shown on screen but on a blue bike that turns out to be another make, again spottable.

The objections mainly seem to be that what I propose doesn't cover everything so is not perfect, but nothing is anyway, so basically that's an argument that we should all just give up and do nothing.

I'm confident that the bulk of the problem of whole bike theft would disappear, and insurance costs would drop as a result.

The only downside I can see is that at some stage compulsory third party insurance could be introduced, but I don't see that as a problem. Those with decent bikes often insure, third party cover is wise anyway, and the costs would be very low since the third party risks of a no-passenger low speed vehicle are very low indeed.
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Ahh yes, of course if it's mandatory then every cycle SHOULD have a number plate, any without are immediately suspicious and should be stopped by the police or reported.

ANPR may not work due to the automatic nature of recognising the plate, the police would probably need to manually input the numbers.

Insurance would be a sticking point, arguably there would be less need for insurance due to less stolen bikes. I own expensive bikes and don't insure them, my risk, I accept that risk and take care of my stuff accordingly, I would resent compulsory insurance to be introduced when I have little interest in it, unless it was cheap enough. The insurance companies would just see another cash cow in the making given the number of cycles in existence.

The size of plate could be an issue, amongst all the other crap that hangs off the rear of my bikes and what happens when mountain biking and it simply falls off or is ripped off? I've lost lights in this manner and not even noticed!! The weight weenies wouldn't be too happy either!

Insurance would be my only other objection as long as the cost of registering a bike, once, or on transfer of ownership was cheap enough also.

 

[indalo]

I'm ok with the reading part provided there are not too many paragraphs. Then I tend to scan

Hi Kitchenman.

Forgive me being pedantic but you just used an interesting word. When you mentioned that you then, "tend to scan", did you mean that you begin to speed-read or gloss over the written material quickly? The reason I mention it is because someone once pointed out to me when I said that I'd quickly scanned something, that to scan is to inspect minutely or examine closely. I never knew that but of course, you may have intended that. Please don't think I'm correcting you; I only do that when Aldby buggers up his spelling.

Indalo

 

[flecc]

@ eTim: As I remarked earlier, the number plates could be small but still legible, since with bikes only being about one fifteenth of the cars on the roads the alpha-numeric form could be much simpler.

ANPR would still read them, since it already reads earlier car number plates in simpler forms.

Swansea would have to administer and use the same database, but since all the bikes in use are only about one to two years worth of new car registrations, they would easily cope.

 

[flecc]

N.B. Metropolitan Police last reported annual bike theft figure for London alone was 18,218 in 2008, and it's been rising at a increase of well over 1000 a year plus a more recent large surge.

So it's going to be way past 20,000 a year now, and it should be borne in kind that a very large proportion of such thefts are not reported to the police. The true total could easily be double or much more than that.

 

[themutiny]

As with most suggestions from Flecc, this is an eminently sensible and well thought through suggestion. In the last 10 years, me and my immediate family have suffered 7 bike thefts, including (and most especially) my beloved Torq.
My objection is based on a mixture of personal circumstance (selfish) and a hatred of officialdom, no matter how well intentioned.
I currently have to remember servicing, insurance, VED and MOT issues for 1 car and three motorbikes. If I had to add my 3 ebikes, my two pushbikes,my wife's ebike, and my kids pushbikes (as I assuredly would have to) a major inconvenience would transform into (another) part time job!

The idea is good, but I would have to vote against it.

Mr Selfish

 

[eTim]

N.B. Metropolitan Police last reported annual bike theft figure for London alone was 18,218 in 2008, and it's been rising at a increase of well over 1000 a year plus a more recent large surge.

So it's going to be way past 20,000 a year now, and it should be borne in kind that a very large proportion of such thefts are not reported to the police. The true total could easily be double or much more than that.

If the theft of bikes really is causing a problem to the authorities and the public, why has a scheme not already been proposed?

If most bike thefts are not reported, does this mean that most owners don't really care? Therefore it's not causing a major problem to owners? Would this sort of scheme only really benefit the owners of expensive machines that tend to take a bit of extra care to prevent theft anyway?

What is the distribution of thefts of various price ranged bikes?

 

[spiritburner]

Its going to come to a point that insurers will just not give theft cover on bikes in the UK, in Spain most insurers wont give you theft cover on motorcycles or scooters let alone bicycles, my house insurers just said forget it! If you want theft cover on your house here then you have to have bars on the windows and doors! Alarms are useless here.

I believe that we should have third party insurance to cover our own backs but to start a registration scheme is just going to far, what about mobility scooters, horse riders and not forgetting pedestrians who cant keep on the pavement!

 

[themutiny]

The only incentive to report a bike theft is to get a crime number for insurance purposes. If not insured, then it's pretty futile in my experience.

 

[flecc]

My objection is based on a mixture of personal circumstance (selfish) and a hatred of officialdom, no matter how well intentioned.
I currently have to remember servicing, insurance, VED and MOT issues for 1 car and three motorbikes. If I had to add my 3 ebikes, my two pushbikes,my wife's ebike, and my kids pushbikes (as I assuredly would have to) a major inconvenience would transform into (another) part time job!

Mr Selfish

Very much my own instincts too Nick, but my reason for suggesting it against my own beliefs is that it's too easy for prejudice to prevent the realisation of a benefit.

As a multi-vehicle owner I certainly appreciate the objection to the added burden, and I could see this leading to people not owning multiple bikes.

So it's a balancing act, the very painful and obvious theft problem that you and many others suffer, against the added bureacracy. I think the latter the lesser burden, but that will vary individually.

 

[flecc]

If the theft of bikes really is causing a problem to the authorities and the public, why has a scheme not already been proposed?

If most bike thefts are not reported, does this mean that most owners don't really care? Therefore it's not causing a major problem to owners? Would this sort of scheme only really benefit the owners of expensive machines that tend to take a bit of extra care to prevent theft anyway?

What is the distribution of thefts of various price ranged bikes?

As commented above thefts are not reported because owners know what a waste of time it is. As for why this hasn't been suggested before, there's a first time for everything and this is it.

Theft values are across the board, low and high price bikes, highlighting that the thieves are the opportunists I've specified who would be foiled by the measure I'm suggesting. Owners care whatever the bike value, any theft inconveniences them and all anti-crime measures that work should be used to better our world.

 

[flecc]

to start a registration scheme is just going to far, what about mobility scooters, horse riders and not forgetting pedestrians who cant keep on the pavement!

This is missing the point, I'm suggesting an anti bike-theft measure, not a fairness for all scheme or a solution to all the ills of the world. The suggestion is for our benefit.

 

[smudger1956]

I agree to TPI ( to cover your own back ) but registration I would object to,besides, it would be unworkable.

Tony

 

[flecc]

I agree to TPI ( to cover your own back ) but registration I would object to,besides, it would be unworkable.

Tony

How and why Tony? It works for 30 million cars and a million mopeds!

They have to be registered to be on the road, and so would bikes have to be. It really is that simple. Some US states have e-bikes registered and Switzerland and Germany have their fast class e-bikes registered and plated. In the 1950s in Britain we had over a million bicycles fitted with small petrol assist motors, every one of them registered with tax discs and number plates, and that was well before there were computers to administer.

Patently it is not unworkable.
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[DJH]

I think any registration scheme would discourage people from having bikes, which is not a move in the right direction. The government would like the extra revenue although more people would have to be employed at the DVLA.......................................as for the police to enforce these new regulations...........nightmare springs to mind!

 

[flecc]

I agree there might be some reduction DJH, but see that as more likely being the casual occasional cyclist. Elsewhere there could be gains, since some are actually being put off buying a decent bike by the theft problem. Just recently a new member was worried about buying an e-bike for commuting due to this, and other members have suffered very badly a number of times from theft.

Registration certainly didn't put off those who added assist motors to their bikes in the 1950s, they were immensely popular and despite the riders having to pass a driving test as well, they outnumbered the e-bikes we have now by about 10 to 1 with a smaller population then.

So I don't see the cost to cycling as significant.

 

[Blew it]

Highly desirable as it is, any attempt to introduce registration of bicycles would probably never get past committee stage.

To those who go equipped for the specific intention of stealing bicycles, removing a number plate would very much be in the league of small potatoes. Likewise, serial numbers can be ground off. Sophisticated equipment can read the deformation of metal at molecular level to re-establish the serial number, but not if a new random number has been stamped over the top of the original. With both identifications removed, it becomes 'just another bike'.....metallic litter if you like.

When out and about on my own bikes, I see many 'just another bike', thrown into lakes, accompanying shopping trollies in brooks, entangled in hedgerows and sitting on top of skips rented by others. Many of these become 'pool-bikes', they are in the public domain for use by any youngster who needs a bike to get to school in the morning....the chances being he will ride a different machine home in the evening, a sort of unofficial Boris-bike culture.

Imagine how many millions of bicycles there are in this country, in garages, sheds and even lofts (guilty as charged). If mandatory registration was introduced, how many of these 'just another bike' would be dumped into the nearest river or hedgerow along with all the ones that are already there. Better they should be donated to 'Bikes-for-Africa', where at least they would be treasured by a youngster who previously walked three miles or more to the nearest school.

Re- introducing dog licenses would figure much higher in my list of priorities...and that aint likely to happen either!!

For every one of us who owns something we treasure, there are ten people within close proximity who will happily relieve you of ownership, and a little number plate will not stop them from doing so. If it's parked outside the safety of your own home, then it's in the public domain and up for grabs.

Nice idea that it is, I suspect the cash-strapped police service would have little stomach for the ensuing logistical and bureaucratic nightmare that would result from such legislation.

If you like it....keep it in sight
Regards
Bob

 

[spiritburner]

This is missing the point, I'm suggesting an anti bike-theft measure, not a fairness for all scheme or a solution to all the ills of the world. The suggestion is for our benefit.

Flecc, I respect and understand your point, what i was trying to portray was that I just can not see the point in a registration scheme which will just lead on to more things, compulsory training followed by licensing, compulsory wearing of helmets, MOT, Insurance, Airbags like some motorcycle manufacturers were looking at, what next? Oh and not forgetting yet another reason to employ even more civil servants on pensions paid for on the backs of the poor, No, never bring on more legislation please, we have enough of it already, cycling is one of the last great bastions of personal freedom giving you the ability to move rapidly over distances without interference from government!

Insurers will not insure uninsurable risks, after all they are in business to make money, its just a numbers game and as i found out in Spain the number of thefts exceeds the amount of income they they receive in premiums, the plug gets pulled and we all suffer.

Anti bike theft measures will be dont leave it where it can nicked, unfortunately this is a sign of our times and while I dont like it if people feel strongly enough to do something about it they should seek election and make a change in our society.

 

[z0mb13e]

Flecc, I respect and understand your point, what i was trying to portray was that I just can not see the point in a registration scheme which will just lead on to more things, compulsory training followed by licensing, compulsory wearing of helmets, MOT, Insurance, Airbags like some motorcycle manufacturers were looking at, what next? Oh and not forgetting yet another reason to employ even more civil servants on pensions paid for on the backs of the poor, No, never bring on more legislation please, we have enough of it already, cycling is one of the last great bastions of personal freedom giving you the ability to move rapidly over distances without interference from government!

Insurers will not insure uninsurable risks, after all they are in business to make money, its just a numbers game and as i found out in Spain the number of thefts exceeds the amount of income they they receive in premiums, the plug gets pulled and we all suffer.

Anti bike theft measures will be dont leave it where it can nicked, unfortunately this is a sign of our times and while I dont like it if people feel strongly enough to do something about it they should seek election and make a change in our society.

Please, no more regulation! My heart sinks at the prospect...

 

[daudi]

The reaction to this thread is interesting. I don't think that this needs to be as onerous as people are making out. I've registered my bike with Immobilise :: The National Property Register, for phones, gadgets, bikes & more... and it took just a few minutes. With this I have an RFID tag inside the frame and a label on the outside. It would be a small change to have a number plate, perhaps in addition to the RFID tag, perhaps instead of it.

Registering it online took just a few minutes, and filling in a little form and posting it would not be terribly hard work either.

I'd vote in favour of Flecc's idea.

 

[z0mb13e]

The reaction to this thread is interesting. I don't think that this needs to be as onerous as people are making out. I've registered my bike with Immobilise :: The National Property Register, for phones, gadgets, bikes & more... and it took just a few minutes. With this I have an RFID tag inside the frame and a label on the outside. It would be a small change to have a number plate, perhaps in addition to the RFID tag, perhaps instead of it.

Registering it online took just a few minutes, and filling in a little form and posting it would not be terribly hard work either.

I'd vote in favour of Flecc's idea.

Voluntary is fine. As soon as it becomes mandatory it will carry with it penalties for not complying.