Selling and Buying Second-hand e-bikes

[103Alex1]

You've highlighted the problem Alex. You know how to look after a lightly used battery, but most consumers don't as we so often see in here with posts about batteries failed after being left idle and unchecked for many months.

With second hand batteries the worst scenario should always be assumed when buying, assuming the best is a bit like believing the stock investment that could pay 10% p/a interest will definitely do so.

I tend to ask relevant questions and form a balanced view based on the responses obtained and I'm sure there are sellers out there who do know how to look after batteries. However much misrepresentation and hanky panky goes on with eBay, not every seller lies about everything they sell and most would not understand the implications of their responses to various questions anyway. I hardly ever see info on care of batteries in eBike ads for example. So you can do your own risk appraisal with an understanding of the basics. In the end, assuming the worst of all things means you're likely to miss out on good opportunities.

Bottom line is if buyers of 2nd hand eBikes don't step up and recognize positive aspects of the opportunities they are presented with (as well as trying to self-insure 2nd hand purchases by devaluing all aspects automatically in their willingness to pay), a number of things will happen :

- The market turnover will be weakened

- Brand value will initially be damaged - collapse in confidence of premium brands especially. If I see bikes unable to be sold or trading on for well below their intrinsic value on eBay etc. I will more than likely steer both brand & model a much wider berth both in terms of new and 2nd hand eBikes.

- There will be less demand for new models and fewer new sales as owners will hang on to their bikes rather than trade up (or may keep bikes for long periods rather than sell meaning no supply of the better younger 2nd hand bikes). The better quality market in particular will be hit hardest.

- Buyers will think very hard about paying premium prices for new bikes and may become more reluctant to do so, especially in a sector where technology is constantly evolving. The 2-yearly cost of trading up underlying bikes/systems will start to become disproportionate for all but heavy users.

- Sales seen will be forced by circumstances over preferences and this will lead to a maximum value for any 2nd hand eBike within 1st 2 years, however old. If that stabilized at under £1k then I'd predict ultimately the typical Bosch/BH-type bikes at £2.5k+ could be hard hit in terms of new sales and those keeping bikes for 3+ years may also feel a knock-on with effective annual ownership cost over 3 years of about £750p.a. and 1-yr ownership winding up costing £1,200 or more.

That would make many people think very hard before buying a new eBike. Certainly, the cost of keeping up with technological advancement or changing preferences becomes very high indeed - especially when half the time it seems you wind up being a guinea-pig for supplier software debugging trials !

Somewhere in there I still think that people know quality when they see it and when they do they will be willing to pay a fair price for what a bike is worth. Be interesting to see how the market develops over next few years.

 

[flecc]

I don't think most go anywhere near as deeply into the subject when buying Alex. It's only in forums like this that a few know how to look after batteries, and the whole forum membership is no more than 7% of the e-bike population. The majority of the other 93% will just charge when using the bike and leave idle when not. By all means be trusting if you wish, but I know this is an area for considerable caution, the history of the posts in this forum clearly showing that.

 

[Gringo]

I think Alex has got it right, as a potential buyer seeing how dismal the second hand market is, if my Agattu sells I wouldn't buy another high end bike.
If it doesn't sell, even though it's the wrong bike for trailing I'll probably end up stripping it down to bear bones to use it for those wooded trails.

 

[shemozzle999]

Perhaps someone could develop something like this for the European market - it would take a fair bit of data input to be anywhere near accurate on pricing:

Bicycle Blue Book - Used Bikes

 

[Charliefox]

At some time in the future LiFePO4 batteries will be adopted, though there's no sign it's about to happen, but when it does their life will probably be double that of the present batteries, so the formula is easily adapted to that sort of change .Quote.

Glad to hear my LifePO4 battery will last so long! Bought 2 on Ebay in Jan 2015. But I notice they are no longer seen much. I know the cells of Li-on batteries are getting more powerful but overall life is much the same. Any idea why the less powerful but longer lasting LiPO4 have not risen to the top? Harder to make? Cost more? Or is it the usual consumer thing of latest must be best!

 

[Woosh]

Glad to hear my LifePO4 battery will last so long! Bought 2 on Ebay in Jan 2015. But I notice they are no longer seen much. I know the cells of Li-on batteries are getting more powerful but overall life is much the same. Any idea why the less powerful but longer lasting LiPO4 have not risen to the top? Harder to make? Cost more? Or is it the usual consumer thing of latest must be best!

LiFePO4 has many well known advantages: safe, fast charging, many more charging cycles but their lower voltage means you need to pay for 11 cells instead of 10, so 10%-30% more weight and 10% more cost. In turn, those considerations attract slower development. You can get 2600mAH 18650 in LiFePO4 and 4500mAH in LiCoMn.
LiFePO4 is more suitable for rental bikes.

 

[flecc]

Glad to hear my LifePO4 battery will last so long! Bought 2 on Ebay in Jan 2015. But I notice they are no longer seen much. I know the cells of Li-on batteries are getting more powerful but overall life is much the same. Any idea why the less powerful but longer lasting LiPO4 have not risen to the top? Harder to make? Cost more? Or is it the usual consumer thing of latest must be best!

Adding to Woosh's post, at the time of my second prices write up many Lithium batteries had been suffering from short lives, sometimes very short. I killed one in 3 months and it's warranty replacement in 10 months. Also their cells were often steel cased so heavy. Therefore LiFePO held the promise of much longer life with little disadvantage.

Now things have moved on so much that's no longer the case, today's compound cathode Li-ions the best all round.
.

 

[georgehenry]

One potentially flaw in the flec valuation method in relation to crank drive bikes is the assumption that the battery is the most fragile element.

I am one of those high mileage commuters using a crank drive Yamaha hard tail Haibike.

I bought it in March 2015, and it is now 3 and a half years old. As of my return from work today my mileage hit the magic 10,000 miles.

The battery which is the original one and now itself three and a half years old continues to work really well with still little obvious sign of a loss in capacity.

On my 14 mile mostly off road ride to work it used 28% of its 400Wh capacity and 36% on the 10 mile road trip home. I use more battery going home as I use the motor more to travel faster. This is the same as when the bike was new.

Perhaps in the forthcoming cold of winter I will begin to see some sign of the capacity reducing. Time and cold weather will reveal all.

The fact that the battery can be removed so easily and that I always do remove it and keep it in the house where it is warmer and dryer than a cold garage may be a factor in keeping it in good condition. After my ride home my battery is about 65% fully charged and is left like this until as near to the next time I intend to use the bike as possible before being charged up to full.

If I am on holiday from work the battery is left until I next go back to work and this gap can be up to three weeks.

I do charge my battery at work so it is full for my 10 mile road trip home.

Now the first motor on this bike was replaced under warranty free of charge by the dealer I bought it from when the bike was two years old and the motor had completed 6000 miles.

There was nothing wrong with the functionality of that motor but the main bearing had developed play and a replacement motor seemed to be an easier course of action for the manufacturer than replacing the bearing that had worn. I cannot say I was unhappy to get a brand new motor free of charge.

So with crank drive bikes the motor may have an even shorter life span before major work/replacement is required than the battery.

I also have an old 2011 Oxygen emate city and am on my third battery and second motor. I am sure that one factor with the Oxygen is that the battery is behind the seat and too much like hard work to remove and gets charged in the unheated garage and left there all the time.

Perhaps the thing to learn from this is to choose the bike you buy with care and then ride the wheels of it to get the full value from it.

 

[anon4]

Truthfully it's only worth selling something if it's seen its useful life or doesn't get used as everything has such a huge loss even months into its purchase. Sellers expect too much, buyers expect something brand new for the cost of a McDonald's. Therefore I try to make full use of everything I own so when it's ****** I don't feel bad selling it for a pittance or recycling it. People will charge what they want

 

[soundwave]

expect -40% of the rrp from brand new if you sell it 2nd hand ebikeshop uk do this if you order a bike sit on it and got the wrong size as it is then classed as used so want to send it back, lol.

 

[georgehenry]

expect -40% of the rrp from brand new if you sell it 2nd hand ebikeshop uk do this if you order a bike sit on it and got the wrong size as it is then classed as used so want to send it back, lol.

Although one story is good until another is told and I never commented in that thread at the time I believe that the person who made that rather bitter post may not have been completely truthful. What he may have failed to declare in his post though I have no evidence one way or another is that far from only sitting on the bike in question he may have ridden it in a muddy event with no intention of keeping it but to use the returns policy and the fact that he used a credit card to get his money back by returning it. 40% starts to make a bit more sense then.

I know Martin is a bit of a marmite character to some on this forum but I treat as I find and after buying my Haibike Yamaha from ebikeshop have received top draw customer service including a new motor fitted free of charge right on the point of my two year warranty expiring.

 

[soundwave]

but you wont get a 40% discount on any bikes he sells even on ebay used


go for a test ride and buy that as it is used and show him what it says on his web site

Distance and off-premises contracts
The following sections only apply to distance and off-premises B2C contracts. All on-premises and B2B sales, including all bikes supplied under the Cycle to Work Scheme, are final. Goods purchased with finance are subject to the agreement with the finance provider.

Please note that if you wish to exercise your right to return goods under these provisions items must be NEW and UNUSED in order to receive a full refund. The retail sales value of a used item is generally 60% of the new and unused value. THIS APPLIES EVEN IF A BIKE HAS BEEN RIDDEN ONLY ONCE. Please therefore ensure that the item has not been used at all unless you are likely to receive only 60% of what you paid for it when new. Please USE A BOX and proper packing materials. Items damaged due to careless packaging will not be refunded. Sales of items specially ordered, including specially ordered sizes, or customised to customers requirements are final & may not be returned.

 

[georgehenry]

As I said marmite and I only speak from my own experience which has been good. Maybe it would have been otherwise if I had wanted to return my bike if it had been the wrong size. I almost did not post my comment above because the only two people who know the truth of that particular matter are the two protagonists. As they say "The truth is out there"

Although the fact that Martin did not get into a slanging match and kept his council was for me another point in his favour.

 

[flecc]

One potentially flaw in the flec valuation method in relation to crank drive bikes is the assumption that the battery is the most fragile element.

The battery which is the original one and now itself three and a half years old continues to work really well with still little obvious sign of a loss in capacity.

Indeed, and it could have as much as a couple more years in it, but I have throughout mentioned adjustments for known factors. The formula has to take care of all cases, it would be no use if set for the minority of high quality ones, and there's also the factor that in buying second hand one has no idea how the battery has been treated.

In buying a quality model at two years old, the bike could have been out of use for over a year and the battery not regularly charged, which could have seriously shortened it's life. Basically there has to be the suspicion of worst case unless there's some evidence of better, batteries are too expensive to gamble on unknown quality.
.

 

[georgehenry]

So for an expensive crank drive you need to allow for both the motor and the battery!

 

[flecc]

So for an expensive crank drive you need to allow for both the motor and the battery!

Given the motors can cost £500 or more, yes, but overall it's batteries that are the most prone to early failure, especially if not looked after.

Let's face it, e-bikes are not like cars and motorbikes which are remarkably reliable in their early years, have a well established market of known values and can readily be repaired anywhere. E-bikes can be very unreliable even when quite new and have very limited options for repair, so caution is very necessary.
.

 

[Charliefox]

LiFePO4 has many well known advantages: safe, fast charging, many more charging cycles but their lower voltage means you need to pay for 11 cells instead of 10, so 10%-30% more weight and 10% more cost. In turn, those considerations attract slower development. You can get 2600mAH 18650 in LiFePO4 and 4500mAH in LiCoMn.
LiFePO4 is more suitable for rental bikes.

Why the 10%-30% more weight if only 1 cell extra in every 10? Are those cells also heavier individually than LiCoMn then ? Or are we talking Kg per output? Whatever, for my money I'd rather have 1000-2000 charges than 500 or so since by the time I come to replacement times perhaps something new will have arrived. I agree weight is important but since I'm a reasonable 70 kg another kilo or so is not much in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps I can get the old cells replaced in the original case provided the cell size has not changed too much. Thanks for your reply!

 

[flecc]

Whatever, for my money I'd rather have 1000-2000 charges than 500 or so

The days of only 500 charges with good quality li-ion are long gone. Some regular commuters are using their batteries for five years plus, which is over a 1000 daily charges.
.

 

[Woosh]

Why the 10%-30% more weight if only 1 cell extra in every 10? Are those cells also heavier individually than LiCoMn then ? Or are we talking Kg per output? Whatever, for my money I'd rather have 1000-2000 charges than 500 or so since by the time I come to replacement times perhaps something new will have arrived. I agree weight is important but since I'm a reasonable 70 kg another kilo or so is not much in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps I can get the old cells replaced in the original case provided the cell size has not changed too much.View attachment 26814 Thanks for your reply!

this is because LiFePO4 batteries are usually made with 26700 3,300mAH cells in 11S3P and 11S4P giving you 10AH to 13.2AH batteries, weighing 4kgs-5kgs.
Li-ion batteries are usually made in 10S with 18650 2,900mAH, 3,300mAH or 3,500mAH cells. A common size of e-biike battery is 13AH or 500WH, if you make it with Li-ion, the battery would weigh 3kgs-3.5kgs, while with LiFePO4, 4kgs-5kgs.

 

[Charliefox]

Adding to Woosh's post, at the time of my second prices write up many Lithium batteries had been suffering from short lives, sometimes very short. I killed one in 3 months and it's warranty replacement in 10 months. Also their cells were often steel cased so heavy. Therefore LiFePO held the promise of much longer life with little disadvantage.

Now things have moved on so much that's no longer the case, today's compound cathode Li-ions the best all round.
.

Moving on to 2023 and I see Ford is setting up a (chinese) factory to make LiPO car batteries. They are a lot cheaper than the ones with cobalt, less fire risk, but shorter range (as in Ebike form). Most Chinese EVs are using them to keep costs down. Tesla is using them on their 'cheaper' models to and keeping the cobalt ones for longer ranges.