Recommend a bike for touring

[VroomVroom]

Hi people,

I am planning to tour around Europe this Spring for about 3 months and I wanted to know what electric bicycle would be the best for it. This will be my first electric.

I want to cycle myself without any aide on flat roads and downhill of course so the bicycle needs to be light but for steeper hills and bridges I need some assistance to not wear myself out too much considering I will cycle about 50kms a day. The bike doesn't have to climb it all on it's own power, I will still cycle along moderately, need just a bit of a push. Speed is not an issue, I will tour in a normal pace while observing nature etc.. I will also be taking with me some camping gear and clothes, about 10kgs extra.

I prefer a mountainbike style one although not necessary, so the Ezee Torq looks ok, however everyone is saying it's not suited for steeper hills and the gear ratio isn't ideal for that either.

So could you name some that would suit me so I can look into them?

Cheers
VroomVroom!

 

[rsscott]

Hi VroomVroom and welcome to the forum!

That is an interesting challenge you've set yourself there. Here are some things which you may want to consider:

1. Most electric bikes are not very comfortable to pedal without power especially over longer distances. You may find the additional assistance on the hills is cancelled out by your increased energy expenditure on the flat.

2. Range. 50kms a day is possible on some models/battery combinations at 15mph and that is in pedelec mode. Hills and the wind will obviously seriously affect the total range achieved.

3. Charging. How do you propose to recharge the batteries ? Will you be making planned stops on your trip ?

4, Weight. Most cycle racks should be able to carry 25kg so your 10kg should fit comfortably within this limit.

It might also be worth dropping Quentin Van Marle an email. He recently rode 2,000 miles alongside the Mississippi River. You can contact him via the Big River Ride website

cheers
Russ

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Hi people,

I am planning to tour around Europe this Spring for about 3 months and I wanted to know what electric bicycle would be the best for it. This will be my first electric.

Hi VroomVroom, As you're wanting the best, do you have a budget to suit? The best in electric bikes for use overseas are widely considered to be either from Swiss Flyer or Swizzbee but both of these are premium priced brands. Otherwise how do you feel about renting initially or buying from a dealer who is willing to buy it back at the end - given 3 months is a long period to rent. These manufacturers websites are: swizzbee - home - Sprachwechsel and BikeTec - Startseite. Willkommen the later not being in English but having details on rental sources, Babelfish is there if needed.

I will tour in a normal pace while observing nature etc.. I will also be taking with me some camping gear and clothes, about 10kgs extra.

So if you're camping will you be in campsites with mains or will you need a solar charger out in the wilderness? Although there are companies which provide foldable solar chargers of sufficient power output for reasonably fast battery charging in sunny conditions, they are very expensive (over £500) If you use a solar charger it also means a big chunk of daylight time is taken up charging rather than riding.

I prefer a mountainbike style one although not necessary, so the Ezee Torq looks ok, however everyone is saying it's not suited for steeper hills and the gear ratio isn't ideal for that either.

Any hub motor driven bike is going to be less than ideal for hill climbing as the motor gear ratios are fixed at a compromise value to offer reasonable speed on the flat as well. For the best in hill climbing you need the motor power to go through the geartrain and both the brands mentioned above offer this. If you want a cheaper option a secondhand Giant Twist would also do the trick but they are road bikes and have road bike styling.

 

[VroomVroom]

Hi Russ and Flying Kiwi, cheers for the responses and the welcome!

1. Most electric bikes are not very comfortable to pedal without power especially over longer distances.

Yes, that's why I am looking for the lightest one, which seems to be the Torq. And I thought if I put the throttle just a little bit open, I won't notice it that much?

2. Range. 50kms a day is possible on some models/battery combinations at 15mph and that is in pedelec mode. Hills and the wind will obviously seriously affect the total range achieved.

Especially considering I won't use the assistance half of the time, which means I need the throttle type bike, not the pedelec I think. So again another vote for the Torq.

3. Charging. How do you propose to recharge the batteries ? Will you be making planned stops on your trip ?

I will take an extra battery with me by the way. On camping sites they usually have a place to plug in and if needed I won't hesitate to go into a bar/privately owned shop/etc and pay them a few bucks to recharge while having a drink, eat and doing some sightseeing. I will also stay at hotels on some nights.

It might also be worth dropping Quentin Van Marle an email. He recently rode 2,000 miles alongside the Mississippi River. You can contact him via the Big River Ride website

That's pretty neat, I read around on his site, what an experience.....he used a Torq so I will email him about the steep hills and all.

As you're wanting the best, do you have a budget to suit?

My budget is around 2000 euros/2600 dollars, give or take.

The best in electric bikes for use overseas are widely considered to be either from Swiss Flyer or Swizzbee but both of these are premium priced brands.

I checked out the link for the Swizzbee and it would have been ideal (although more then I wanted to spend) if it didn't need a registration/number plate. It is considered a small power bike here in Europe and that means red tape 8(
I skimmed through the Swiss Flyer link but will go through it properly tomorrow..

Otherwise how do you feel about renting initially or buying from a dealer who is willing to buy it back at the end - given 3 months is a long period to rent.

Nice suggestion, however I would like one not just for the tour but to use everyday 'at home' too, because I don't want a car or motorcycle.....too noisy, confined and too much red tape.

So if you're camping will you be in campsites with mains or will you need a solar charger out in the wilderness? Although there are companies which provide foldable solar chargers of sufficient power output for reasonably fast battery charging in sunny conditions, they are very expensive (over £500) If you use a solar charger it also means a big chunk of daylight time is taken up charging rather than riding.

Never thought of that, sounds interesting. Would have been the best thing if it could be charged while riding! Which reminds me, wasn't there an electric bike that would recharge while breaking or something? What was that one called?

Any hub motor driven bike is going to be less than ideal for hill climbing as the motor gear ratios are fixed at a compromise value to offer reasonable speed on the flat as well. For the best in hill climbing you need the motor power to go through the geartrain and both the brands mentioned above offer this. If you want a cheaper option a secondhand Giant Twist would also do the trick but they are road bikes and have road bike styling.

Road bikes are ok too, although less comfortable for me personally. I will check out the Twist too tomorrow.

Cheers again both for taking time to respond, night!

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Yes, that's why I am looking for the lightest one, which seems to be the Torq. And I thought if I put the throttle just a little bit open, I won't notice it that much?

The Giant Twist is lighter than a Torq and if you're taking a second battery and panniers/loads, there really wont be much of an all up weight difference among all the bikes mentioned so far. With a pedelec you also have an economy setting (or power off) so you certainly don't need a throttle to save power.

I won't use the assistance half of the time, which means I need the throttle type bike, not the pedelec I think. So again another vote for the Torq.

No thats not the case - see above. Additionally, if you want options to fine tune the power consumption of your bike, nothing is up to the controllability of the Swizbee - have a read of it's manual (although you may need to save a bit longer to buy one than a Torq).

I will take an extra battery with me by the way. On camping sites they usually have a place to plug in and if needed I won't hesitate to go into a bar/privately owned shop/etc and pay them a few bucks to recharge while having a drink, eat and doing some sightseeing. I will also stay at hotels on some nights.

Cant say I blame you not wanting to spend over £500 on a solar charger if you can possibly avoid it.

.....he used a Torq so I will email him about the steep hills and all.

What you've already heard/read is correct though - if you want something thats best for hills, a Torq it aint.

My budget is around 2000 euros/2600 dollars, give or take.

There'll need to bee some "give" then for the best. On the other hand, you'd also get more back when you sell either of the premium brands.

I checked out the link for the Swizzbee and it would have been ideal (although more then I wanted to spend) if it didn't need a registration/number plate. It is considered a small power bike here in Europe and that means red tape 8(

Yes it has that classification but just how much red tape that involves will depend which country you want to use it in. I'm sure if you contact their dealers in the countries your planning to visit they would advise you what, if anything, special is reqd.

Nice suggestion, however I would like one not just for the tour but to use everyday 'at home' too, because I don't want a car or motorcycle.....too noisy, confined and too much red tape.

OK so it would need to be a purchase then. Alot of bike shops here offer interest free finance so if your savings haven't reached the reqd amount by the time you need it, that may be an option. Remember you'll have a bike that has a higher resale value as well.

Re Solar chargers

Never thought of that, sounds interesting. Would have been the best thing if it could be charged while riding! Which reminds me, wasn't there an electric bike that would recharge while breaking or something? What was that one called?

There have been solar powered bikes used in races in Australia but the size of the solar panel and cost doesn't make that practical for everyday use these days - maybe in the future?

Road bikes are ok too, although less comfortable for me personally. I will check out the Twist too tomorrow.

They tend to be more efficient for road use because they are designed from the ground up for that purpose and use appropriate components. This is compared to the alternative of a mountain bike thats had "bits changed" to make it more "road friendly".

Cheers again both for taking time to respond, night!

You're very welcome. Feel free to ask any further questions you have and I'll try to help.

 

[flecc]

I agree with Flying Kiwi regarding the Twist, I routinely ride mine for miles without switching on the power, even when towing a large trailer on the flat, but wouldn't dream of trying that with the Torq or any other electric bike I've tried.

I'd strongly advise you not to choose the Torq without a thorough hills trial first. The hub motor is geared 50% higher than other electrics, with maximum torque at 12 mph instead of about 8 mph on most hub motor bikes. That means if the hill is too steep to maintain 12 mph up it, the power drops off rapidly as the speed falls and you're left inceasingly on your own. But that's no good since you can't help then, as it's derailleur bottom gear is also very high at 58", which is a generally accepted middle gear on road bikes. Indeed, it's the middle gear on the 3 speed Twist. The Torq has no low gears at all.

 

[Sav]

I haven't got the experience of these guys, but researched the subject thoroughly before buying recently.

My need was similar to yours, no assistance on the flat, help on hills. The only answer was the Lafree Twist Comfort (pedelec). None of the hub motor bikes are equipped to climb hills as their primary assistance function. The pedelec option offers assistance throughout the speed range. Hubs are either geared high or low, not both.

The Swizzbee looks good but is a hell of a price and there is the registation problem, though I would guess it would not apply to a visitor to those countries with a bike purchased elsewhere.

HTH

Chris.

 

[Leonardo]

About the Swiss Flyer - the T series (T = Trekking) is a pedelec concieved for touring, with a 28” wheel and a progressive kind of assistance… the entry level T4, with the classic derailleur and v-brakes, is less expensive than a Swizzbee and gives no legal problems in all EU countries… I know that Flyer is also going to produce a new mountain bike pedelec, which should be ready in few months… may be you can ask them about that – but I’m afraid it will be more expensive than the T series… Check also in which country (Nederlands?) Flyer is cheaper - may be is one of the countries you think to begin your tour with…

edit: a problem with the Swiss Flyer is that their Lithium batteries (very light: 2,1 kg) are very expensive: a second battery would cost you around 5-600 euros more (but the battery gives you a real >50 km range on flat, so may be you could avoid to buy the second one, especially considering the "shelf life" problem of lithium batteries)

 

[Jim]

whilst its true that in its standard guise the torq isn't the best hill climber on the market, but as it uses a standard bike drivetrain you would have no problem changing the chainset and cassette to something more suited to your purpose.

 

[Miles]

That will gain you some mechanical advantage but it won't get you any help from the motor (to the contrary...)

 

[VroomVroom]

Hi people, cheers for the responses again, they were all helpful.

After reading around more I have erased the Torq from the list and put the Giant Twist on top of the list, but the new version which is just out here in the Netherlands, with double (!) Lithium-ion batteries included (hidden underneath the small bags, with option for bigger bags), more than 100km range (Giant site says 130kms):

Specs:

Giant Bicycles | Â bikes - ebike - Twist Comfort 1.0 blue

Looks ideal on paper, what do you think? I emailed a few dealers to ask if they have one I can testdrive.

Cheers

 

[Miles]

No, you want one of the old models that work through the chain transmission. The new ones just have a hub motor.

 

[Leonardo]

If you are in the Netherlands (I thought you were in US, I don’t know why), do try the Flyer as well. As the others can explain you better than me, the uphill ability of the New Twist is a big question: a lot of people is worried about Giant’s choice of not using any more the crank motor (Flyer bicycles use the new generation of that Panasonic motor)… Extraenergy test of that bike was scheduled for December but for some reason it has been delayed till March. In other countries we often suspect that there is big difference between the qualities that make a pedelec good for the “flat” Netherlands and the qualities required in the rest of Europe…

 

[flecc]

I second Miles comment, that new one is a very different machine and on paper doesn't have good hill climbing specification. It's very obviously aimed for the Dutch market, flat country.

With mainly only hub motor bikes available now at reasonable prices, trying to find a good hill climber is a problem since the hub motor format isn't ideal for that purpose. The nearest to a solution is a powerful hub motor with normal motor gearing to give the maximum power at about 8 mph. All the eZee bikes other than the Torq are like that, and have about the most powerful motors around.

The Torq might just be option if you're a very fit rider and accept that you'll only be able to pedal up 1 in 10 or very short 1 in 8 stretches, anything beyond that you walk. If you're carrying loads of touring kit, those climbs might be further limited. The throttle can be modified to permit extra low speed control so that you can walk alongside with the motor pulling the bike uphill at walking pace. I've done that to mine as I have a very steep (1 in 6) walking access from the road to it's garaging.

The Currie Electrodrive motor as used on the Izip is an older design but is a quite good hill climber. If you wanted something more sophisticated on the bike side, alloy instead of steel, the Currie is available as a kit to fit on your own choice of derailleur gear bike. Links below:

Izip.

Electrodrive

 

[VroomVroom]

I assumed the new Twist was pedelec too like the older version, too bad because all the other things were ideal. I am going to test one this week though, just got an email from a dealer and I will try a steep bridge just to experience it (no hills in the Netherlands, hehe).

The Flyer was second on the list, but they have so many types, I will delve into that. Leonardo, you suggested the T-series for touring and I found a list of all the C and T series with specs here, which one would you guys pick?:

Elektrischefietsen

flecc, I'll check those links later, appreciated.

Cheers

 

[flecc]

A misunderstanding there VroomVroom.

Pedelec means that no motor power is available without pedalling at the same time. The new twist is a pedelec, and the Torq has a pedelec mode, but both are hub motor of course.

There's no convenient word for a motor driving via the chain through the gears, possibly because there's so few of those.

 

[VroomVroom]

Cheers for clearing that up flecc. To make sure, the old Twist, the Flyer and Swizzbee are motor driven via the chain, right?

I have seen a few secondhand old version Twists for about 800 euros which is very cheap, but no guarantee etc.

 

[Leonardo]

I think that the T4 would be the right choice, if it is not important for you to have the rollerbrakes and the nexus... it seems that those v-brakes are ok also under stress and the classic derailleur shouldn't bother who has cycling experience (I find the nexus wonderful in town, as the 26" weel, but for touring imho it is not necessary).

I see that in your country the Flyer bicycles are even a bit cheaper (!) than elsewere...

One of the members of the italian pedelec forum (yes, we have one!) did a report of a journey on the Alps with that bike, may be you'd like to have a look.

edit: Our friend did today a new reportage about one of the steepest roads of the Italian Alps (and of the "Giro d'Italia"): have a look here.

 

[flecc]

Yes, the three you mention can be considered as chain drive, but the Swizzbee is a very special case of that, with a complex but superb implementation, hence the price!

 

[Leonardo]

I hope my question about hill climbing is not OT. Looking at the Extraenergy test results, I see that the Ezee Sprint “uphill factor” is rated at 5.3, while it is 2.8 for the Giant Twist and 2.1 for the Flyer T8. I’m not very sure about the methods they used, since I don’t think that uphill the Flyer is weaker than the Giant, but above all I’m surprised that the hub motor of the Ezee has such a better performance uphill than the chain driven one of the other two. I never tried an Ezee. Is there anything I don’t understand? (If this matter has already been discussed, please just give me the link.)