Recommend a bike for touring

[kraeuterbutter]

video: http://www.electricross.com/Video/SP Eric Swan 65 foot table 320x240.avi
nice 65feet jump with e-bike

for Nimh and Lipo..
what you said, is because of that 1C-2C thing !

with nowadays lipos its other way round !

we used very high quality NiMh cells in our rc-planes and rc-cars
(imagine: 70 Euro for 7,2Volt and 4,2Ah !)

but when it comes to power Lipos are superior nowadays !
you use the wrong batts on your bikes

here some data a rc-pilot measured about the Xcell4900:
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/bilder/xcell4900.GIF

so: seriously: how much current do your bikes suck ?
when you use 36Volt
and lets say not more than 700Watt (i know, not legal anyway)
that would be 20A
ha... ridiculouse

10 Xcell in series will be able to give you 75A continously !!
(that would be 2600Watt Power !)
and such a pack would weight only 1.2kg !

and for voltage-drop: any NiMh you can get for e-bikes in the shops is A LOT worse and a lot heavier (or can you get 2600Watt out of your NiMh that ALSO weights only 1.2kg ? )

i think the video in this my post with the juming e-bike at first line of posting shows best what a lipo/liIon can do... and that battery in that bike weights only slightly more than a NiMH e-bike-battery-pack
nevertheless: its "only" a LiIon and not a Lipo... so there would still be more power possible

 

[flecc]

It's 20 amps peak, and today's bike Li-ions cannot deliver that without a severe voltage drop. Typically, the voltage on a 37 volt 10 Ah Li-ion Manganese pack drops below 32 volts even when new and freshly charged, triggering cut-out.

As you say, ridiculous really, but it's all we've got at present. I look forward to when we get better cellpacks that can deliver that easily, but at the moment I use an NiMh on my most difficult routes.

It's ok to have better batteries in theory, but that won't get me to my destination, I have to use what is available.

The other problem is life of course. We keep getting told about amazing lives, but in practice Li-ion batteries are losing over 35% of capacity in the first year and often useless before they are two years old. With NiMh, that loss of capacity doesn't happen until my batteries are well over two years old, and I'm still using four year old batteries.

So in practice the NiMh is better because it does a better job and because it has much lower running costs. Something not available cannot be better yet, only when it's available.
.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

hmm.. i see...
your LiIon seem realy to be bad quality !
only 32Volt at 20A for a 10Ah battery ? brr... i shiver

2 questions:
* how much does such a 10Ah 36Volt LiIon cost ?
* how much does it weight ?


look here:
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/bilder/Konionxxxx.GIF

thats a Konion 1300
at 20A you can see... around 3,3Volt at beginning falling down to 3Volt at end (continously from start until battery is empty.. i think you don´t stress your e-bike batt that way)

for a 10cell pack that would mean:
36V/37V nominal voltage
33Volt going down to 30Volt at around 20A

BUT: not 10Ah !! but only 1,3Ah !! and only 430g

--> when taking the cells 8 times parallel you would have
36Volt and 10,4Ah at around 3500g weight

at 150A (continouse power, not only Peak-power !) the pack would then go down with voltage like your LiIon-pack with same capacity at 20A *lol*
so: 8time the power of your e-bike-LiIon

(oh: the diagramms i post are not from manufactor but from rc-test or myself, and can all be reproduced all times !)

for lifetime:
when you use around 50A continously (you will not in an e-bike... an e-bike would be much more gently with currents) you will have around 300cycles out of this pack..
lifetime: we use Konions now since they are on the market (about 3,5years i think ?!?) and still the packs are running fine and giving more than 90% of there capacity !

NiMh: i got never over 100cycles with them (unimportant if i used GP, Sanyo, Panasonic, VMVS, ....)

the batteries ARE HERE... meanwhile for years now...
so: if you can handle a solder iron you can make your own pack, safe money at long run and gain performance

i nearly had the opportunity to buy a used biketec Flyer F4 3 month ago..
unfortunatly it was not possible
a friend has also a biketec flyer.. he has meanwhile replaced the NiMh by FePO4 (which the manufactor says have a lifetime of 10years and cycletime of maybe 3000cycles in that bike) (if my friend manages it to drive every day the next 10 years *lol*)


forgott price:
for low budget:
i know, i can build a 10s (10cells series) 8p (8 parallel) pack out of Konion1100 cells for around 280-290Euro (building the pack by myself)
pack would have 8800mAh, contious power: 88A Peak-Power for 10 seconds: 160A
i KNOW that this pack would hold at least 300cycles in a e-bike because we stress the cells in our planes BY FAR more (for example empty them in less than 8min)
and i know that this cells would be fine after 3years (my oldest are 3 years and work nearly like on first day (still more than 90% capacity ! measured with telemetrie)

look here:
eBay: *** Orginal 36V Li-Ion Akku von Bosch *** (Artikel 170083523282 endet 23.02.07 20:30:00 MEZ)

this pack weights around 900g, costs around 70Euro and will performance like outperforme the 10Ah pack you mentioned also it weights only 900g (Lithium Manganes, so will no burn, safe)
can handle 25A cont., 45A 10sec. peaks

here pic of the first pack i disassambled..
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/BOSCH_DEWALT_Akkus/Konion aus Bosch Akkupack.jpeg

 

[flecc]

My packs cost £250 and weigh 4.4 kilos including case etc, and they are already Lithium manganese, and they fail!

I do re-cell my NiMh packs already, but if a pack is built with those Konion cells there's no monitoring circuits to control charging or for safety. I wouldn't be happy to use any Li-ion technology without some monitoring circuit. It's an unknown as far as risks in e-bike usage are concerned.

The other problem is the charger, are there any available that are suitable for 36 volt packs of those 10 Ah cells?

They still cost more than NiMh of course. I cannot understand why you only get 100 cycles from an NiMh battery. I have one that's over 200 cycles and still ok, and I know another user who has the same.
.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Hi flecc
you still burning that Midnight oil if possibile would you reccomend NiMh instead of Lithium for my torq ps iam not sure if i will get a choice but if i do it would be handy to know which would be best. nigel.

 

[flecc]

Hi Nigel. Your new bike will almost certainly be Li-ion, but 50cycles can update you on that. I don't think those rolling Hampshire hills will cause it any problems if you are doing your bit with the cycling. In my awkward immediate area I hit some very difficult hills almost whichever way I go, and one of the longest ones is best handled with the NiMh. The others are ok with the Li-ion and me doing my fair share.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

@flecc:

my NiMh last for 4-6min in the heli (then they are empty)
its a stress for the batts..

when used cold (20°C) they have no power (20-30% less "juice" and pressure)
so: i charge my 3300mAh NiMh with 8A charge-current
that brings the cells to around 50°C
and so they get power because inner restistance goes down (less than 3mOhm per cell)

for Lipos: lipos of same weight have (considering the higher voltage of a single cell a inner restistance of less than 1mOhm !!! far better than NiMh)

the 3900mAh Lipo holds 6-7min in my Heli... and provides A LOT more power than the NiMh
nevertheless it hold over 100cycles
(the NiMh only around 50cycles then starts too loose power rapidly)

for Konions:
there are hundrets of people using the Konions
so far they seem to be the only cell on the market (and we have tested in the community about 15 different brands and over 100 different cell-sizes)
with DO NOT drift !
they are also sold by the BOSCH WITHOUT any balancing-technologie implemented !
its not needed..
people report, that also after 200cycles of heavy use the cells are still well balanced (= less than 0,05voltage-difference between the cells)

as said: i have also tested other LiIon-cells, same size (18640-size)
some get out of balance (more than 0,1Volt -Different between cells !!!) within 3 charge/discharge-cycles !!!
balancing is a must for that cells..
on the other hand my Konions 4s3p (12cells) with 160cycles there is no difference bigger than 0,01Volt per cell !

on all other cells (specially on cobald based and Lithium Polymere) i would also use a balancer or equalizer

chargers: there are many chargers (at least more than 20 i know) that can charge Konions 10s
there are some that can charge 12s
and 2-3 that can charge 15s

these are computer-chargers, that can also charge NiCd, NiMh, Lipo, LiIon, Tadiran, and sometime FePO4, have Reflex-charging programs, formating programms and so on with display and sometimes connectibility to PC...
prices start at around 120 Euro
example:

up to 12s Lipos chargable
up to 10A charge-current


FePO4: there are maybe around 10chargers so far that can charge this cells (charge-voltage: 3,6Volt !!!! not 4,2Volt !)

 

[kraeuterbutter]

@flecc:
FePO4 fact sheet from manufactor:
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1 Datasheet.pdf
(at typically e-bike-currents you see: after 1000cycles there should be over 90% capacity left !)

compare to this:
50cycles Electric Bicycle - What you really need to know about Lithium ion battery packs


fact is: there are already some guys in the rc-community which have reached the 500cycles with this cells so far, cells still running strong
(and we rc-flyer toture the cells much more than you will do with an e-bike unless you have peaks of 18.000Watt in such an e-bike *lol*)
(i reach 900Watt Peaks, 270Watt average with A123 FePO4-cells with an 290g light pack in my heli ! after that the cells have about 40°C, and - with 8A charged - after 16min ready for action again !)

 

[kraeuterbutter]

so.. last posting for next time (otherwise i think somebody would kick me out of the forum )

a charge-diagramm to "shock" you again,
to show HOW durable this cells are !

3 cells A123 with 2,3Ah fast-charged !
charge-current: starting with 78A !! going down to around 35-30A

battery full after 4min 18sec.

this - of course - will bring life-time of the cells down !

charged with 4C = 10A the cells will be full after 13-14min and are good for 1000cycles

charged with 10C = ~25A the cell will be 95% full after 5-6min and will last for around 200-300cycles

 

[flecc]

There's no dispute on these graphs. I know of at least one manufacturer of electric bikes who is currently trialling FePO4 and has been for some while. That same manufacturer has also explored Lithium polymer and found, in their own words, the results were "terribly disappointing".

All the graphs and figures in the world do not make any difference, I've been looking at these for many years. All the examples of small applications as in the model helicopters do not make any difference.

I've seen all this sort of thing for NiCad, later I've seen it for NiMh, then for Li-ion Cobalt, more recently Li-ion Manganese, most recently for Li-Poly and now FePO4.

To date, it's when they are put into traction applications that they all fail to deliver what was promised.

One day one will appear that won't fail, and then I will believe it. But until then I give no credence to lab results and very small scale uses.

If FePO4 was at present the perfect answer, we would already be using it in our bikes, since this technology has been around for quite a while now.

It may be that current research will enable it to be used for our bikes, but meanwhile the best option remains NiMh for reasonable cost coupled with reliable ability to do the job, and not too many disadvantages.
.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

i understand your point of view...
some way

also explored Lithium polymer and found, in their own words, the results were "terribly disappointing".

well.. than they have not tested good cells..
i know: its a BIG cost-factor..
good LiPo cells, pre-assambled with 36V and 10Ah WILL cost lot of money (count with around 800Euro+)

but these cells will be able to delive also about 5-8times the Power than the cells i have found on bike-shop

of course only very view people would pay 800Euro+ for a lipo pack with "only" 10Ah
so the e-bike shops need cells which are cheaper... and unfortunatly also FAR worse in performance

I give no credence to lab results and very small scale uses.

well.. at least do some of our "small scale" planes need more power than
any e-bike (up to around 5000Watt)

but here are example of bigger application THAT DO work and are no lab-experiments:
Lange Flugzeugbau - Antares 20E - Battery system

Antares, a electric full-scale plane which Lithium Ion-batteries:
in this application: it should last 1500cycles and last 8-11years..
if the cells do not get to hot/warm, they can also last 20 years

also the city-el (most common electric car in Europe) is driven by some people with LiIons (see test-articles)
==> compared to Acid (10.000km range until battery has to be replaced)
the Lithium-Ion-battery will hold over 100.000km

well.. i have to admit, that i have NO personall experience with that plane and that city-el...

at least i know: for competition reason and high-performance-cars the teams use always small cells (the same cells we use in our small-scale-rc-planes) and parallel them...
there are no big cells that can handle 10C or 20C discharge
the small one can..

with this small cells you can for example build a battery-pack with 200kg weight and over 600hp Peak Power and still don´t stress the batts and get good battery life of them

here also a new promising technologie we will see hopefully in the next years:
Altairnano - AMPS

some key-data:
* possible to charge within 1 minute
* high cycles life of 10.000 - 15.000cycles (20% charge left), 9000cycles at full discharges
* high lifetime 15years+
* Ultra-safe characteristics (even when heated to 240°C nothing happens - a NIMh would explode)
* operation at extreme temperature possible (-30°C still 90% capacity)
* operation at high temperatures (at 65°C still 90% capacity)
* 80C Peaks possible (a 10Ah battery can put out 800A Peaks)

even if all of this values are only halfe as good it would be still killer..
the only downside.. weight is comparable with NiMh

the target are full-size cars... with 200miles range, 15years battery life and at least 200.000miles batterylife => so you will have never to change the battery in your car

well... i will come back in 8-10years here and post, if the FePo4 in the Flyer F4 of my buddy still works he already uses for 1/2 year now with great suxess.. *lol*

to come to an end:
i readed here, that Lithium Ions have less Power than NiMh...
at the beginning i only wanted to state,that
1.) the NiMh which are used in e-bikes are weak ones...
(trimmed to most capacity, but for that low power... but you NEED big NiMh, because paralleling Nimh is not a good thing... at least do NEVER EVER when charging !)
2.) the LiIon also can do MUCH more than stated here
(specially the smaller cells.. and - because paralleling is not of a problem with this cells - can deliver very much power for an e-bike...)
==> look for the 14400Watt electric-motor-bike above... the battery is only 3 times the weight of your e-bicycles-LiIon which is already stressed with only 700-800Watt


i hope i opend your mind to look also for other power-sources than the once you get in the bike shops..

 

[kraeuterbutter]

ups.. double post

 

[flecc]

Don't worry kraeuterbutter, my mind is open to new battery technologies and I've been following them closely as you have, but in my case for well over 50 years! No one wishes them to succeed more than me.

But in that time I've seen every new promise fail, so I'm not prepared to accept everything on face value now.

Remember, for the world's most common battery usage, starting a car, we still use what is essentially a 19th century technology. So much for practical advance.

As you say, many of the applications presented to us rely on many small cells to work. In turn that means if the batteries need electronic protection measures, and most do in practice, there has to be one of two big disadvantages. Either all the electronic protections need to be with the battery, or they need to be with the charger. Either way, the costs and complexity are huge. There's only so much consumers will pay as you've observed, and the perceived benefit of an electric bike isn't large enough to support very high purchase or running costs, except for a tiny number of enthusiasts.

For manufacturers at the more expensive end of the market, that's already the customer base they are limited to, so there's little room for movement.
.

 

[Quicken]

Remember, for the world's most common battery usage, starting a car, we still use what is essentially a 19th century technology. So much for practical advance.

I think mobile electronics is the world's most common battery usage now. There are more mobile phones than cars (over a billion shipped in 2006 alone). Then there are all the laptops, PDAs, DAPs (mostly ipods), etc. etc.

Cheers,
Q

 

[kraeuterbutter]

yes.. total agreemend

following:

people who pay max. 400 Euro for a normal bike will not pay 2000-3000Euro for a e-bike

people who pay 1500Euro+ for a normal bike, WOULD pay 2000-3000Euro for a e-bike if there was the power and fun-factor..

problem there: limitation of power by law (which is of course nesseccary when you wana drive them on bike-ways)

so:
there are motor which can do the power
there are bikes which would be able to handle the power
there are batteries which could handle the power easily

to see the benefits of strong motors and batteries, you would have too use the potential (which is not allowed by law and most bikes would not survive 5000Watt Power eather)

on 250Watt, 400Watt, 700Watt bikes you will not see the benefits of the batteries (which can do 10times the power) that much over cheap batteries ==> so: cheap batteries are included (which will be done maybe after 2-3 years)

for

But in that time I've seen every new promise fail, so I'm not prepared to accept everything on face value now.

you are so right..
it seems, that every 6month some new miracle battery technologie is announced in the medias
and then most you hear never ever anything again from that companies

iam not that old like you (28 now) but in the rc-hobby for 20years now..

i remember the first electric plane, climbing in 5min to around 200meters.. it was a sensatione !
(meanwhile we have climberates of up to 70-75meter/sec !! so the 200meters are reached in 3 seconds)

some years later we used batteries with 1000 - 1200mAh NiCd which could do 15A
GREAT..

5 years ago we flew with same battery weight, we had already 3000mAh and could do 40-50A
unfortunatly NiMh do not last that long like Nicd and are mimosa when it comes to storing ("NiMh have no memory effect anymore"... bla bla )
you store them over the winter, and in spring the battery has lost 20% of its power

now we use batteries of same weight, LiPolymere but around 10.000mAh !
they can do 100A easily.. and last longer than NiMh in the same powerapplications..
unfortunatly: after 2-4years they are gone too, unimportant how often used because of some chemical process in the cells..

now there are the LiIon Konion Mangan --> they are similar in performance to NiMh, from weight-standpoint between NiMh and Lipo
batterylife is expected to be around 300cycles at our power-drains..
lifetime around 5-6 years, nobody knows excactly.. at least a lot longer than our NiMh

the FePo4 is comparable to the Konion but stronger
and it should last even longer (in our applications around 300-500cycles.. in a e-bike more than 1000cycles can be estimated)
10years lifetime

for the FePo4: we are already using them, we are already torgering them..
and compared to the cells we used 3years ago (nimh), 5-8years ago (first NiMH, and Nicd) this cells are GREAT !!!


for real power-yunkies were weight is important Lithium Polymere are still the non-plus-ultra...
but for a bike i would estimate, that FePo4 because of the long lifetime are optimal..

building a balancer is not that difficult at all.. i think for 12s Fepo which i would use in a E-bike it should be able to do for less than 100euro

i think if there was as bike-company which would seriously want to provide there customers with cells that last longer than 4-5years, and more than 200-300cycles IT IS possible today
and they also should be able to pay a electronic engineer for 1-2 month to design an balancer-cuircit which could be included to the charger

market would be the people who also pay more than 1000Euro for a normal bike..

oh.. here a 2-seat-bike (or sort of) powered with FePO4
40kw Power (2 motors)
Fly the Road

 

[flecc]

I think FePo4 is the most promising for some while kraeuterbutter, as long as they can be made to deliver enough current for sustained periods of traction use. That doesn't seem to be clear at the moment.

Like you I'm aware of the shortcomings of NiMh, but for me at present it's the only thing that does the job without complaint, reliably, and at low cost. Ultimately, those are what really matters.

 

[flecc]

I think mobile electronics is the world's most common battery usage now. There are more mobile phones than cars (over a billion shipped in 2006 alone). Then there are all the laptops, PDAs, DAPs (mostly ipods), etc. etc.

Cheers,
Q

Of course, and we could mention the countless millions of digital camera as well. I've written previously on a small device over 8 year old Li-ion battery I have which has lost very little of it's capacity.

But here as in your thread before, I'm speaking in the context of this forum and our usage, i.e. high current capacity batteries. Hence vehicles being at the top of that stack, and my observations on the relative failures of all other technologies to date in any traction applications.

Kraeuterbutter observed an example this with NiMh by the use of the wink smilie when referring to "no memory effect on NiMh", which of course there still is, albeit less than with NiCad.

Only weeks ago we had the announcement on TV news with a big fanfare of a small fleet of electric trucks taken on by a courier company. Everything was wonderful apparently.

Barely four weeks later, I've seen a spokesman for that company on TV speaking in much less promising terms, one might almost say a bit dismissive. It was abundantly clear that some less palatable truths had already arisen. I'm prepared to bet they won't be in a hurry to expand this particular venture, and think it likely the trucks will be sidelined or sold off before too long as the downsides become more manifest.

One day I'll be proved wrong on this, and that couldn't come soon enough for me, but I've been waiting a very long time for that day.
.

 

[flecc]

Edit: I just visited Lidl-shop. They had 4,5 AH NiMh cells 2 euro/piece. You need 60 cells for 36V, 9Ah = 120 euro

But that means running cells in parallel, and with NiMh that's not suitable, especially when charging. The battery wiring would have to be splittable for charging in two 30 cell units, and I still don't think running NiMh in parallel usage can be trouble free either.
.

 

[flecc]

-25 degrees! Ouch.

My Li-ion seem to suffer more in the cold, at least the NiMh keep going well enough. But of course, what we call cold in England is zero degrees, that's a winter heat wave where you are.
.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

How to realize that, how much Ah for 100 euro?

Edit: I just visited Lidl-shop. They had 4,5 AH NiMh cells 2 euro/piece. You need 60 cells for 36V, 9Ah = 120 euro

you got me wrong..
i meant, it should be possible to build an Balancer for 12s FePO4 for less than 100 Euro

look here:

thats a balancer i use..
it costs 35 Euro and can equalize a maximum of 6cells
you can buy a second one, connect them via data-cable
so you can balance/Equalize 12 cells...

(ignore the UNITest2, its only for showing whats going on)

this balancer is connected with the charger via data-cable as well:

if now the balancer (or the two) notice, that one cell has a too high voltage (or two low), they start to equalize that cell(s) with the other cells..
at the end all cells have same voltage..
this happens durring charging, or before/after charging without charger as well..
if the inbalance is that great, that the balancer can not blance during charging with 10A current, the balancer say that to the charger, so that he can reduce charging current or in a extreme emergency even stopp charging

its MUCH more important for Lithium Polymere cells which can catch fire under very bad circumstances while charging
for FePo4 its not that important at all...

but this balancer-unit costs you around 70 Euro and will be able to balance/equalize your batteries (if they are LiIon Mangan, FePO4 or Lithium Polymere)

thats said for balancing/equalizing