Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[Ghost1951]

Not so Tony , HICE engines are internal combustion engines with H fuel cells as well as generator type systems with H fuel cells.

Have you looked at the dreadful efficiency of hydrogen ICE vehicles? It is truly appalling and a huge waste of electrical energy if produced by electrolysis and worse if produced from cracking methane gas.

It takes 50 kwhrs of electrical energy to produce 1kg of so called 'green hydrogen' gas - perhaps produced partly by wind turbines and solar, but in this country over the last year consisting on average of 27% methane gas turbines.

That 1kg of hydrogen contains between 33 kilowatt hours of heat if you burn it. So immediately we have a substantial loss 15 kilowatt hours.

However - burning the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine will at best produce about 35% efficiency in shaft horse power - ballpark and generous figure there. So if we take the over-generous estimate of how much shaft horse power we get out of it we might see 10 or 11 shaft kilowatt hours produced by a hydrogen engine which took 50 kilowatt hours of electricity to make. Overall - about 20% efficiency or about a quarter of what we would have got if we had put the electricity into an electric motor.

Factor in that at the present time, most hydrogen - about 98% is made by cracking methane in another very inefficient process, the so called hydrogen economy is a grotesque fantasy in every way.

Hydrogen has a host of problems in storing it. It takes more energy to compress it and it escapes like Houdini from any vessel you try to keep it in.

It is almost certain that those hydrogen busses are a total gimmic using hydrogen that is made out of methane gas. It wold be a FAR FAR better thing ti just run those busses on methane. There would be far less co2 produced if you did that. 98% of hydrogen available today is made out of methane in an inefficient carbon wasting process. The hydrogen is cracked from methane with super heated steam at very high pressures. The pressure and the steam use power extracted from the methane and the carbon left over from the whole process escapes to the atmosphere.

Burning compressed methane would have a far lower carbon footprint. Methane gas has 4 hydrogen atoms and one carbon one. Burn it directly in your bus engine.

Steam methane reforming plant producing hydrogen. Guess what comes out of those chimneys.....

 

[Nealh]

Efficiency I don't know , it is the cost currently that would make any ones eyes water. Then again EV's make my eyes water with their costs and to my eyes impraticle designs in a lot of cases.

The Wright H buses we have here can do 600 miles on a fill up which takes about 8- 10 minutes far better then the equivalent EV bus with only a 200 mile range.

Tbh no one has got on board (car wise) with major production of them , only two H cars are offered in the UK . One a Toyota and the other a Hunday, filling stations are equally as scarce.
The other issue is cost of producing green H as compared to dirty grey H.
Mean while industry is happy to cause enviromental destruction every where to ine the precious minerals.

 

[Woosh]

In China, and I guess also in some other countries, buses are recharged by induction loops buried under their parking slot at the end of the line. It only takes a few (about 10) minutes. They stop for their drivers to have a rest while being recharged so they don't seem to be interrupted.

 

[flecc]

The Wright H buses we have here can do 600 miles on a fill up which takes about 8- 10 minutes far better then the equivalent EV bus with only a 200 mile range.

In London we restrict our use of hydrogen fuel cell buses to the very few unavoidable longer routes. Re-planning routes had enabled our battery buses to cope with almost any need.

The hydrogen for London's buses is produced at Air Liquide's plant in Runcorn, which uses waste hydrogen as a by-product from an industrial chlor-alkali plant.
.

 

[soundwave]

ill have the psu out of one of those

 

[lenny]

Just Stop Oil protester, 77, recalled to prison as wrists too small for tag

Just Stop Oil protester, 77, recalled to prison as wrists too small for tag

Grandmother Gaie Delap, from Bristol, was sentenced to 20 months in prison in August for her part in disruptive protests on the M25 in November 2022.

www.shropshirestar.com

 

[lenny]

Government outlines plans to end use of bee-killing pesticides
Campaigners welcomed the move but urged ministers to commit to a ban starting in January.
"The Environment Department (Defra) is currently under investigation by the Office for Environmental Protection (OEP), which said the last Government may have failed to comply with environmental laws when granting use of thiamethoxam on sugar beet seeds in 2023 and 2024."

Government outlines plans to end use of bee-killing pesticides

Campaigners welcomed the move but urged ministers to commit to a ban starting in January.

www.shropshirestar.com

 

[MikelBikel]

Nuclear power doesn't have the same ROI compared to wind, solar and batteries so it's not a priority. If you look at the way wind and solar can be integrated over 1000 miles-1500 miles East West such as Western China (Xian province, sparsely populated, sunny and windy) producing electricity fot Eastern China (Shanghai, Bejing, densely populated), when the sun sets in Shanghai, electricity is still abundantly produced in Xian. The same happens in Australia and if the UK grid is integrated with the EU grid, the same can happen here too. All we need is ultra high voltage DC connectors. We wouldn't need so much gas and nuclear.

Probable these proposed solar flaps will all be blown away and washed down the river?

 

[saneagle]

Have you looked at the dreadful efficiency of hydrogen ICE vehicles? It is truly appalling and a huge waste of electrical energy if produced by electrolysis and worse if produced from cracking methane gas.

It takes 50 kwhrs of electrical energy to produce 1kg of so called 'green hydrogen' gas - perhaps produced partly by wind turbines and solar, but in this country over the last year consisting on average of 27% methane gas turbines.

That 1kg of hydrogen contains between 33 kilowatt hours of heat if you burn it. So immediately we have a substantial loss 15 kilowatt hours.

However - burning the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine will at best produce about 35% efficiency in shaft horse power - ballpark and generous figure there. So if we take the over-generous estimate of how much shaft horse power we get out of it we might see 10 or 11 shaft kilowatt hours produced by a hydrogen engine which took 50 kilowatt hours of electricity to make. Overall - about 20% efficiency or about a quarter of what we would have got if we had put the electricity into an electric motor.

Factor in that at the present time, most hydrogen - about 98% is made by cracking methane in another very inefficient process, the so called hydrogen economy is a grotesque fantasy in every way.

Hydrogen has a host of problems in storing it. It takes more energy to compress it and it escapes like Houdini from any vessel you try to keep it in.

It is almost certain that those hydrogen busses are a total gimmic using hydrogen that is made out of methane gas. It wold be a FAR FAR better thing ti just run those busses on methane. There would be far less co2 produced if you did that. 98% of hydrogen available today is made out of methane in an inefficient carbon wasting process. The hydrogen is cracked from methane with super heated steam at very high pressures. The pressure and the steam use power extracted from the methane and the carbon left over from the whole process escapes to the atmosphere.

Burning compressed methane would have a far lower carbon footprint. Methane gas has 4 hydrogen atoms and one carbon one. Burn it directly in your bus engine.

Steam methane reforming plant producing hydrogen. Guess what comes out of those chimneys.....

View attachment 61487

While the gist of what you posted may be true, what you wrote is a bit disingenuous because you didn't mention the losses from the alternative.

When you get your electricity from a wind generator or solar system (national, not domestic), you have to convert it to high voltage in order to transmit it, for which there are conversion losses, then there are transmission losses, then there are further conversion losses when you convert to a lower voltage, for the local grid, then more conversion losses to get it into the EV charger, then charger losses, then battery losses both when charging and discharging. When you add up all those losses, it comes to quite a lot.