Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[saneagle]

There's a new problem with electric cars coming to light. It has been mentioned on various car dealer forums and YouTube videos. The dealers are saying that they don't want to deal in used EVs for a number of reasons, but one reason that keeps coming up is the brakes. A lot of drivers are more or less exlusively using the regen for normal breaking. This means that the cast iron disks go rusty through lack of use. When the driver needs to do an emergency stop, the brakes are not effective enough because of the rust coating, so now there are many YouTubers warning about this issue. The reason the dealers don't like to buy the EVs is because the discs are nearly always scored and the calipers are also often seized. You can see these problems highlighted when you check the MOT history of most electric. When you look through the wheels, you can see the scored discs.

The moral of the story is that if you drive an EV, you should turn down the regen, pay for a bit more electricity and use the brakes a lot more to keep them working properly.

 

[danielrlee]

The moral of the story is that if you drive an EV, you should turn down the regen, pay for a bit more electricity and use the brakes a lot more to keep them working properly.

It needn't be a show-stopper, as issues like this can simply be engineered out at the design stage. Physical brakes could be programmed to be periodically engaged instead of regen in order to keep the braking surfaces clean. It could even be rolled out as an over-the-air update.

 

[Ghost1951]

It needn't be a show-stopper, as issues like this can simply be engineered out at the design stage. Physical brakes could be programmed to be periodically engaged instead of regen in order to keep the braking surfaces clean.

It's like what happened to my old diesel TDR.

I drove it up and down the A69 about a hundred and twenty miles a week and never gave it any beans. After about ten years the bloody variable geometry turbo was stuck and when I tried to overtake a truck on a hill, the engine went into limp mode. The dealers wanted about £1200 to replace it, but I fixed it myself and after that, I made a point of giving it the beans on a long hill. It didn't happen again. I sold it over a corrosion issue on the rear subframe that was going to cost more than the car was worth, but that engine had about another quarter of a million miles in it. I sold it for £800 to the dealer when I bought my new one and it was off the road for months, but I was really pleased to see that it hasn't been scrapped as I thought and now someone has repaired it and it is once again on the road.

 

[danielrlee]

It's like what happened to my old diesel TDR.

I drove it up and down the A69 about a hundred and twenty miles a week and never gave it any beans. After about ten years the bloody variable geometry turbo was stuck and when I tried to overtake a truck on a hill, the engine went into limp mode. The dealers wanted about £1200 to replace it, but I fixed it myself and after that, I made a point of giving it the beans on a long hill. It didn't happen again. I sold it over a corrosion issue on the rear subframe that was going to cost more than the car was worth, but that engine had about another quarter of a million miles in it. I sold it for £800 to the dealer when I bought my new one and it was off the road for months, but I was really pleased to see that it hasn't been scrapped as I thought and now someone has repaired it and it is once again on the road.

It's a common story; a blocked DPF cleared with a good old 'Itallian tune-up'. Did the stealership not advise a spirited drive when they quoted you?

 

[Ghost1951]

It's a common story; a blocked DPF cleared with a good old 'Itallian tune-up'. Did the stealership not advise a spirited drive when they quoted you?

No - it didn't have a dpf filter, but the Italian tune up was the solution. The turbo was stuck and the vanes did not move when commanded by a vacuum initiated by the computer. I drove it miles in second gear and at first the limp mode kept coming on, but I just switched the engine off and on and continued running it at about 4500 rpm. Eventually, after about twenty five miles,it unstuck and then on every hill, I gave it full throttle for three seconds and then no throttle for three seconds on and off, on and off so it got fully cleared. After that, once or twice a week I did the same again, and it had no more trouble.

There were people advocating a much more troublesome solution online which I am assured works. It involved disconnecting the exhaust side of the turbo and filling the hot side with Mr Muscle oven cleaner and then manually pushing the actuator rod in and out. At aged about 70, I wasn't going there. I crawled under the car on the street in mid winter and had a look and decided there had to be an easier way, and there was. How hard it is to get at the hot side of the turbo depends on the particular car's pipe work. On mine it was horribly buried.

 

[flecc]

There's a new problem with electric cars coming to light. It has been mentioned on various car dealer forums and YouTube videos. The dealers are saying that they don't want to deal in used EVs for a number of reasons, but one reason that keeps coming up is the brakes. A lot of drivers are more or less exlusively using the regen for normal breaking. This means that the cast iron disks go rusty through lack of use. When the driver needs to do an emergency stop, the brakes are not effective enough because of the rust coating, so now there are many YouTubers warning about this issue. The reason the dealers don't like to buy the EVs is because the discs are nearly always scored and the calipers are also often seized. You can see these problems highlighted when you check the MOT history of most electric. When you look through the wheels, you can see the scored discs.

The moral of the story is that if you drive an EV, you should turn down the regen, pay for a bit more electricity and use the brakes a lot more to keep them working properly.

Another desperate fantasy from the anti-EV crowd who, in saying this, show that they know nothing about them.

A criticism of EV cars in general is that the regen levels are poor until the brake pedal is employed as well. My Leaf is typical of this, lift off and there's a very small level of regen, whatever mode it's set to, lightly touch the brake pedal and the regen on the dashboard meter shoots up. The criticism of course is that this means the brake pads are brought into contact with the discs so a small degree of wear takes place, but it's minimal and the pads have a very long life.

The benefit of this "fault" of course is that the discs remain polished and clean at all times, all mine are still gleaming and unmarked at six and a half years old.

To complete this information, Audi tried to benefit from this "fault" by a deliberate step in the brake pedal action on one model when they introduced it, to delay pad contact, but it doesn't seem to have attracted any attention since and it course could create the rumoured problem.

Really Saneagle, you of all people should know a subject before commenting on it, based on what YouTubers say.
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[chris_n]

Another desperate fantasy from the anti-EV crowd who, in saying this, show that they know nothing about them.

A criticism of EV cars in general is that the regen levels are poor until the brake pedal is employed as well. My Leaf is typical of this, lift off and there's a very small level of regen, whatever mode it's set to, lightly touch the brake pedal and the regen on the dashboard meter shoots up. The criticism of course is that this means the brake pads are brought into contact with the discs so a small degree of wear takes place, but it's minimal and the pads have a very long life.

The benefit of this "fault" of course is that the discs remain polished and clean at all times, all mine are still gleaming and unmarked at six and a half years old.

To complete this information, Audi tried to benefit from this "fault" by a deliberate step in the brake pedal action on one model when they introduced it, to delay pad contact, but it doesn't seem to have attracted any attention since and it course could create the rumoured problem.

Really Saneagle, you of all people should know a subject before commenting on it, based on what YouTubers say.
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There are plenty of EVs with one pedal driving where you can come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal. You can of course choose not to use it but it does exist.

 

[flecc]

There are plenty of EVs with one pedal driving where you can come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal. You can of course choose not to use it but it does exist.

You misunderstand that function Chris. They Include my car which also has the one pedal option, but they all use the brakes to do that. The upper part of the lift off progressively uses the brakes

Like most drivers I find it unpleasant, using the brakes unnecessarily. A competent driver's skills are preferable.
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[saneagle]

You misunderstand that function Chris. They Include my car which also has the one pedal option, but they all use the brakes to do that. The upper part of the lift off progressively uses the brakes

Like most drivers I find it unpleasant, using the brakes unnecessarily. A competent driver's skills are preferable.
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What ever can or can't be done, the brakes are failing in EVs, as can be witnessed by the MOT failures and advisories.

I just typed "electric car" into Ebay. I looked down the page for the first fully electric one that wasn't a Tesla and had a picture of a wheel. This is it, 15 down from the top. Most of those above it are hybrids or not EVs. Look at the disc in the photo of the wheel. I rest my case.

Pardon our interruption...

 

[soundwave]

Pardon our interruption...

 

[flecc]

What ever can or can't be done, the brakes are failing in EVs, as can be witnessed by the MOT failures and advisories.

I just typed "electric car" into Ebay. I looked down the page for the first fully electric one that wasn't a Tesla and had a picture of a wheel. This is it, 15 down from the top. Most of those above it are hybrids or not EVs. Look at the disc in the photo of the wheel. I rest my case.

Pardon our interruption...

Utter nonsense. One car, possibly not in use due to being for sale, showing a problem. That isn't a case to rest.

Get some EV driving and use experience, then you'll know better. Even test drives will do to understand the models better. I've had those both before choosing mine, and since, and there's very little difference in the experience.

I'll take my practical experience through time over all the vested interest anti-EV brigade. If any e-car should have a problem with disc rusting it should be mine, since it regularly spends some periods of three or four days out of use and often parked wet in my lock up garage. But as said, all four discs are undamaged and polished to gleaming after six and a half years of use, with slightly over average use of regen being predominantly in Eco mode.
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[chris_n]

You misunderstand that function Chris. They Include my car which also has the one pedal option, but they all use the brakes to do that. The upper part of the lift off progressively uses the brakes

Like most drivers I find it unpleasant, using the brakes unnecessarily. A competent driver's skills are preferable.
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Not all EVs are based on Nissan's outdated technology, I am well aware of how it works on a Leaf, most of the stories I have seen have involved Tesla vehicles.
Quote from JD Power, first answer on Google

How Does One-Pedal Driving Work?
One-pedal driving allows a driver to bring a vehicle to a full stop without using the brake pedal. In most cases, there is an on-off button that engages this feature, as shown in the photo above. The button activates the one-pedal driving system in the 2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV.

As the driver anticipates a stop ahead due to a traffic light or a stop sign, they can ease their foot off the accelerator pedal. The vehicle will begin to decelerate at a force of approximately .2g. This deceleration force is equivalent to 20% of full braking force, gradually slowing the car compared to the typical application of the hydraulic brakes. Once the vehicle stops entirely, the hydraulic brakes engage to keep the vehicle at a full stop until the driver presses the accelerator pedal to move forward again.

From Tesla website

How One-Pedal Driving Works in a Tesla

The concept of One-Pedal Driving in Tesla is based on the vehicle automatically braking as soon as the driver takes their foot off the accelerator. This is enabled by Tesla's advanced regeneration technology, which feeds the braking energy back into the vehicle's battery, positively affecting the electric car's range. Tesla vehicles, including the Model 3 and Model Y, come to a complete stop when releasing the accelerator pedal thanks to strong regeneration.
Do Tesla Model 3 and Y Have Only One Pedal?

Although One-Pedal Driving in Tesla vehicles takes over most of the braking work, especially with anticipatory driving, the separate brake pedal remains essential for emergencies and is of course present.
One Pedal Driving simply means that in everyday use mostly one pedal is used, not that there is only one pedal. So, Teslas have two pedals just like other electric cars.
Disadvantages of One Pedal Driving
While One Pedal Driving in a Tesla saves the brakes from wear and tear, this very advantage also leads to the only disadvantage. Because the brake is rarely used, rust can develop on the brake discs, which is not regularly ground off due to the low use of the brake pedal. Therefore, we recommend braking strongly on an empty road from time to time to get rid of this rust.

 

[flecc]

Not all EVs are based on Nissan's outdated technology, I am well aware of how it works on a Leaf, most of the stories I have seen have involved Tesla vehicles.

The JD Power answer is inadequate since most cars with one pedal mode use the brakes.

Tesla do have their fully regen one pedal mode, but they are just one of a large number of e-car manufacturers. And as they stress, one should not rely one pedal braking all the time. For disc rusting reasons alone one should strongly apply the brake pedal from time to time to keep the discs clean and fully effective. Given the pads seem to last almost indefinitely on cars with what you call outmoded technology, what is the point of Tesla's system with an inherent safety defect that relies on driver memory to correct for?

Since we are in a pedelec site, it might be of interest to know Panasonic used a similar system to Tesla on a front hub motor EAPC. On that the motor regen was the only front brake, but they seemed to lack confidence in it since they only planned production of 3000 of them for the Japanese market alone and then discontinued it.
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[chris_n]

The JD Power answer is inadequate since most cars with one pedal mode use the brakes,

Tesla do have their fully regen one pedal mode, but they are just one of a large number of e-car manufacturers. And as they stress, one should not rely one pedal braking all the time. For disc rusting reasons alone one should strongly apply the brake pedal from time to time to keep the discs clean and fully effective. Given the pads seem to last almost indefinitely on cars with what you call outmoded technology, what is the point of Tesla's system with an inherent safety defect that relies on driver memory to correct for?

Since we are in a pedelec site, it might be of interest to know Panasonic used a similar system to Tesla on a front hub motor EAPC. On that the motor regen was the only front brake, but they seemd to lack confidence in it since they only planned production of 3000 of them for the Japanese market alone and then discontinued it.
.

I was just highlighting the fact that not all EVs require use of mechanical brakes to stop, we could stop underground electric locomotives 30 + years ago without using mechanical brakes.
I fully agree with the need to use the brakes to prevent problems due to lack of use BUT you can put in the manual or whatever that it is best to do it but most drivers these days have no idea of what is required let alone 'mechanical sympathy'.
Perhaps if there was software monitoring use of the brakes and suggesting then enforcing use of the mechanical brakes this problem would go away (I'm sure this will come in time but as yet as far as I know not yet implemented)

 

[soundwave]

i want one of those.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps if there was software monitoring use of the brakes and suggesting then enforcing use of the mechanical brakes this problem would go away (I'm sure this will come in time but as yet as far as I know not yet implemented)

Possibly, but I don't see a need, given what you say is an outmoded system does what you ask already. Changing the pads on existing EVs is such a rare event that it's the subject of complaints by trade! Despite all the attempts by the anti-EV movement to show otherwise, e-cars are so reliable the trade I used to belong to as a qualified motor mechanic now hates them with a passion as they see their livelyhood starting to vanish.
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[MikelBikel]

Start of a commercial backlash? Or anti-competitive practices

 

[soundwave]

thats because there unfixable same as bosch apple ect no warranty it goes in the bin and even if you get the oem part unless you have the software to pair it it wont work.

20 years ago i could take my blown speaker down to Stroud and get it reconed amps ect fixed now none of them will touch it and not even recap a switched mode power supply for a pc monitor.

everything is made to be thrown away consumer wise and why ppl pay 2k every year for a fkn iphone is just insane because they have to have to next shiny new thing that they cant even use because there so stupid

also my step dad has been waiting for a mobility car for 8 months now petrol and been told yesterday it has not even been made yet because lack of parts.

we can have a electric one tho

 

[saneagle]

Utter nonsense. One car, possibly not in use due to being for sale, showing a problem. That isn't a case to rest.

Get some EV driving and use experience, then you'll know better. Even test drives will do to understand the models better. I've had those both before choosing mine, and since, and there's very little difference in the experience.

I'll take my practical experience through time over all the vested interest anti-EV brigade. If any e-car should have a problem with disc rusting it should be mine, since it regularly spends some periods of three or four days out of use and often parked wet in my lock up garage. But as said, all four discs are undamaged and polished to gleaming after six and a half years of use, with slightly over average use of regen being predominantly in Eco mode.
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Here's what Google AI says in response to "Does the new nissan leaf need the brakes to stop":
AI Overview

No, the Nissan Leaf doesn't always need the brakes to stop because it has a number of features that assist with braking:

• e-Pedal
  This system allows the driver to accelerate and brake with one pedal. When the e-Pedal is activated, the car slows down and stops smoothly when the accelerator pedal is released. The e-Pedal can be turned on or off by pulling the e-Pedal switch.

• Regenerative brakes
  When the accelerator pedal is released, the regenerative brakes decelerate the car more quickly.
  
  
  
• Intelligent Emergency Braking (IEB)
  This system can stop the car if it detects that it's about to hit another car or if it's too close to a wall while backing into a parking spot. The IEB system is automatically turned on when the EV system restarts.
  
  
  
• Hydraulic brake system
  This system is automatically activated to keep the car stationary after it comes to a complete stop.
  
  

The brake pedal can be used for emergency or aggressive braking, or when the power switch is in a position other than ON or READY to drive

 

[Ghost1951]

I hate it when cars act on their own initiative. I REALLY dislike the thing trying to warn me about lane changing and even trying to steer the car. I HATE the engine turning off when I come to a momentary halt. If I want to stop the engine, I'll turn it off thanks. I don't want the computer doing it within a second of coming to a halt.