Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[flecc]

Since we all use electricity to charge our e-bikes, I thought I'd post this here as well:

Something very close to home, FUEL PRICES.

For those of you what dont yet know the new prices from April 1st, I've received mine:

I'm electricity only and my current month bill for this 20th January to 20th February is £196.19 including VAT.

Exactly the same bill after the 1st April increase will be £306.87 including VAT.

That's up 56.41%.

I'm one of the fortunate few who won't be bothered in any way by this, but I'm well aware that these sort of costs will be disastrous for many. I can foresee many elderly and vulnerable people dying of hypothermia next winter if the government doesn't do something far more drastic than their present inadequate relief plans.
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[egroover]

I'm was on a fixed tarif that runs out at the end of this month, and based on that my electricity rate is doubling and my gas rate is tripling in April.
I've just fixed (yesterday) until June 2023 on a rate just very slightly under the new capped April rates with Scot Power as an existing customer, the rate is not available to new customers. This will protect me from inevitable further rate rises in October when the standard variable capped rate is reviewed.
Surely the remaining untapped North Sea gas fields are now financially viable to reopen ?

 

[guerney]

Demand for ebikes will skyrocket for a time methinks.. Maybe I could sell my Bafang conversion for a profit soon - but wait! I need it to get to work to make money to keep my home illuminated and warm! I've been with Ebico for many years, who after dissolving partnerships with SSE and the bankrupt Robin Hood, have now adopted Octopus to do their Admin and provide energy - Ebico is one of the cheapest (and definitely the nicest), but still too damned expensive.

 

[matthewslack]

If you have a roof that could have solar on it, it is fairly cheap now. Especially using secondhand ex-solar farm panels.

Basic forms of internal insulation for solid walls are also now starting to make more sense as gas prices also rise.

Use as little as you can, generate if you can, don't expect a return to the days of cheap energy.

 

[guerney]

Don't expect a return to cheap food either! I'm still eating these which I grew in October, which reminds me, I must go plant some garlic... I expect the boost in the popularity of growing your own food will continue - it's a relaxing and oddly satisfying activity if you have the time and a strong back (which I don't, recent and sudden sciatica). Pumpkins take less time and resources to grow than nearly any other veg per kg. This one is of the "Crown Prince" variety (spring water-fed, long story): very dense, sweet and nutrious. I drank half of one yesterday (electric juicer, and delicious!), but still have to eat or drink about 28 more. They store for months without refrigeration, but they won't last for much longer I might actually have to buy vegetables in a few weeks. I'll turn orange if I drink all of them.

 

[AndyBike]

How about using some sort of generator to put charge back in.

Lift the back wheel, make sure the bike is switched off. Connect wheel/chain/whatever to generator/dynamo which is plugged into your recharging socket,and start pedaling.

 

[flecc]

How about using some sort of generator to put charge back in.

Lift the back wheel, make sure the bike is switched off. Connect wheel/chain/whatever to generator/dynamo which is plugged into your recharging socket,and start pedaling.

Given the huge amount of effort to recharge the average e-bike battery, one might as well just get fitter and cycle with an unpowered bike.
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[matthewslack]

Given the huge amount of effort to recharge the average e-bike battery, one might as well just get fitter and cycle with an unpowered bike.
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That's one way of looking at it. But my routine transport needs consumes less electricity than my tea drinking!

6km per day at 10Wh/km and average charger efficiency of 70% gives me 86Wh per day from the mains supply. In the summer I can get that from a 20W solar panel. In winter I'd need more like 200W.

Two litres of water boiled per day, more if I'm bored, from mains temp of about 10 degrees C requires 2 x 4.18 x 90 ÷ 3,600 = 0.209 kWh, or 209Wh.

I prefer the comparison with avoided car miles, which is a much more cheerful picture. My 3700km on the bike since July would all have been done on diesel otherwise. The commuting at 20mpg due to horrific road condition, and the rest at about 50mpg. So 300 litres of diesel saved against roughly 30kWh of electricity.

7kg of CO2e (UK 2020 energy mix) vs between 700 and 1,000kg depending on which calculator I use for the diesel.

99% reduction! Ok, too simplistic, as this is not full lifecycle analysis, but shows the potential for change that is there. Not one, but two orders of magnitude.

It says to me do not feel guilty about the e in your ebike, provided it is used in a way that gets good lifetime out of the investment in its materials, and displaces fossil fuel transport.

 

[AndyBike]

Given the huge amount of effort to recharge the average e-bike battery, one might as well just get fitter and cycle with an unpowered bike.
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Im not asking for quip answers mate, this is asking what is the power output, how does that equate etc etc. Obviously its not like plugging into the mains, but i reckon if people were stuck, with no power source, but they had a small generator, a bike, loads of wires, batteries and their life depended on it, I'm quite sure we could come up with something.

So back to my actual question.

Well what is actually needed to recharge a 625wh battery ?. My charger is 4A.- the output is 36v.
It takes about 5h to recharge that size of battery from flat, using the 4A charger.
I would be asking how much does a human pedaling away generate ? Obviously i think it would depend on what the generator puts out. Its a matter of doing the math.
Now im not suggesting it can be achieved in an hour, or even one day, but could it be done within a reasonable time frame of say 3 or 4 days of pedaling or less, i dont know which is why i was asking the people here you understand these things Flecc

I would also point out , that theres no road surface, nor wind resistance to worry about. you arent trying to propel a 100kg mass, just turn a wheel to turn a second wheel to generator power, which you then feed either into some sort of storage unit, or the bikes battery direct.
Many canal boats and small yachts we have wind powered generators for keeping the boats batteries topped up, and as those do a job and work well at it, and as we arent powering anything thats causing a constant drain, it should i would have thought be a simpler process.
I also know that in the WW2 the military had hand powered generators for powering radios. Plus obviously the one made by Trevor Baylis.


So @flecc. The answer is not about getting fitter, or riding a non ebike, its about the generating of electricity that can be used elsewhere.

Maybe one day I'll show you my BayGen radio.

 

[flecc]

So @flecc. The answe is not about getting fitter, or riding a non ebike, its about the generating of electricity that can be used elsewhere.

Apologies, I misunderstood your post. Generation by cycling has been tried many times and it's always very unproductive and takes huge effort all out of proportion to the gain. The only practical use outside of some lighting I've ever seen was one where smoothies were being produced for on street sales in another country, I don't remember which, but the video carefully didn't show it actually happening.

I don't have any exact figures, but a fit cyclist up to their middle years can produce about 200 watts of effort for a couple of hours, but not many cycle at that rate of output continuously. That's a theoretical 4.75 amps at 42 volts, but of course there are the inevitable energy conversion losses, so in practical terms maybe 3 to 3.5 amps to charge a battery.

Trouble is then, could or would anyone want pedal at that rate for four or five hours to charge their battery, very exhausting. All the generating uses I've actually seen demonstrated have seen riders exhausted very quickly.
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[AndyBike]

Thanks for that info Flecc, sorry if i was a bit critical there, you sometimes get too quick dismissals on forums when its a theoretical , yet practical question.

The reason is, while Ebikes are great for running around town and short adventures, you usually come home the same day, so can easily plug into the mains and recharge. Where they fail is off camping, where you might spend a few days exploring off grid.

Once you've expended the charge thats it as far as using the bike is concerned, but if you were able to recharge, even partly, it makes the whole thing more viable.

So camping, you get out into the wilds, pic a spot, set up, construct your fireplace then head off out along trails, but even with a bike theres times you spend thee entire day at the site, chopping and prepping timber for the fire, tiding up, preparing food, and of course that age old camping tradition, getting slightly drunk and sitting on your bum for 10 hours.

If you could set up a simple generator, not too heavy, and easy to attach to the bike, part of that day could be spent, maybe an hour in every three to trickle charge into the battery to extend your stay.

My problem as a non driver living in a country where pretty much everywhere is free to explore land(Scotland) i can get out on the train, then maybe a 10 mile pedal to somewhere remote, given thats also a ten mile return trip, it leaves very little in the battery to get to the nearest village,pub, general exploration run before im out of battery, or i over do it and im in trouble getting back to the train station for my return trip.

Some of the stations in the wilds of Scotland have nothing but a simple platform, no towns or villages for miles, just a length of concrete in the middle of nowhere. So a return trip you'd need the reserves to be good or risk living on an exposed platform overnight having missed the train.

I know you can do B&B's but im a solitary miserable old sod, and refer my own company for quiet reflection in beautiful scenery, without some other guests screaming weans shattering the peace and tranquility of the setting.

 

[guerney]

Sadly, fuel poverty will increase:

Can a community energy group help cut your bills?

Specialist community groups are offering workshops and home visits to help people reduce energy costs.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[guerney]

Thanks for that info Flecc, sorry if i was a bit critical there, you sometimes get too quick dismissals on forums when its a theoretical , yet practical question.

The reason is, while Ebikes are great for running around town and short adventures, you usually come home the same day, so can easily plug into the mains and recharge. Where they fail is off camping, where you might spend a few days exploring off grid.

Once you've expended the charge thats it as far as using the bike is concerned, but if you were able to recharge, even partly, it makes the whole thing more viable.

So camping, you get out into the wilds, pic a spot, set up, construct your fireplace then head off out along trails, but even with a bike theres times you spend thee entire day at the site, chopping and prepping timber for the fire, tiding up, preparing food, and of course that age old camping tradition, getting slightly drunk and sitting on your bum for 10 hours.

If you could set up a simple generator, not too heavy, and easy to attach to the bike, part of that day could be spent, maybe an hour in every three to trickle charge into the battery to extend your stay.

My problem as a non driver living in a country where pretty much everywhere is free to explore land(Scotland) i can get out on the train, then maybe a 10 mile pedal to somewhere remote, given thats also a ten mile return trip, it leaves very little in the battery to get to the nearest village,pub, general exploration run before im out of battery, or i over do it and im in trouble getting back to the train station for my return trip.

Some of the stations in the wilds of Scotland have nothing but a simple platform, no towns or villages for miles, just a length of concrete in the middle of nowhere. So a return trip you'd need the reserves to be good or risk living on an exposed platform overnight having missed the train.

I know you can do B&B's but im a solitary miserable old sod, and refer my own company for quiet reflection in beautiful scenery, without some other guests screaming weans shattering the peace and tranquility of the setting.

If as you mentioned in another thread not too long ago, you were speculating about converting one of your non-electric bikes with a Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit, you could choose a battery of optimally large capacity to get really deep into the darkest wilds of Scotland... where wolves, bears, beavers, Bill Oddie and lynx roam free (though usually not all in the same place at the same time, which makes me suspect they're all the same entity). Ideally, a battery of more than adequate capaciosity, may even enable you to return home clutching feathers, pelts and wotnot. (If wotnots, I'd demand photographic evidence [because I don't know what a wotnot does not look like])

I love the fact that on a whim, I can make a 45 mile round trip with no effort expended whatsoever. 22.5 miles gets me far into distant and lovely woodland...

Scotland votes on returning wolves to the Highlands

Rewilding and apex predators become a big issues for Scottish elections.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[matthewslack]

Apologies, I misunderstood your post. Generation by cycling has been tried many times and it's always very unproductive and takes huge effort all out of proportion to the gain. The only practical use outside of some lighting I've ever seen was one where smoothies were being produced for on street sales in another country, I don't remember which, but the video carefully didn't show it actually happening.

I don't have any exact figures, but a fit cyclist up to their middle years can produce about 200 watts of effort for a couple of hours, but not many cycle at that rate of output continuously. That's a theoretical 4.75 amps at 42 volts, but of course there are the inevitable energy conversion losses, so in practical terms maybe 3 to 3.5 amps to charge a battery.

Trouble is then, could or would anyone want pedal at that rate for four or five hours to charge their battery, very exhausting. All the generating uses I've actually seen demonstrated have seen riders exhausted very quickly.
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I too must apologise if my calcs above came across as anything other than just illustration of energy comparisons. No offence here, and if I gave any, sorry.

Your first post on this thread looks like the tip of the iceberg on prices: I saw a reference recently anticipating 28p per kWh for electricity by the end of the year. Truly scary.

There was a TV show about 10 or 15 years ago, name and channel I don't recall, where a room full of people on bike powered generators were used to meet the electricity demands of a household who were unaware of where the power was coming from. All went well until the 8kW shower was needed...!

Or so I heard!

 

[matthewslack]

If as you mentioned in another thread not too long ago, you were speculating about converting one of your non-electric bikes with a Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit, you could choose a battery of optimally large capacity to get really deep into the darkest wilds of Scotland... where wolves, bears, beavers, Bill Oddie and lynx roam free (though usually not all in the same place at the same time, which makes me suspect they're all the same entity). Ideally, a battery of more than adequate capaciosity, may even enable you to return home clutching feathers, pelts and wotnot. (If wotnots, I'd demand photographic evidence [because I don't know what a wotnot does not look like])

I love the fact that on a whim, I can make a 45 mile round trip with no effort expended whatsoever. 22.5 miles gets me far into distant and lovely woodland...

Scotland votes on returning wolves to the Highlands

Rewilding and apex predators become a big issues for Scottish elections.

www.nzherald.co.nz

It is time I opened that box and got on with it! So much late winter wind and rain in the last couple of months has rather dented my productivity.

The aim is threefold: long multi day a to b journeys with minimal recharging time due to a non-trivial solar trailer, trips into the wilds to the end of the battery capacity with a modest solar setup that recharges the bike whilst I hunt snark (obviously only within the season), and day rides with the smaller solar option directly providing part of the energy needed, thus stretching a battery by 50 to 100%.

But first I must build it!

 

[guerney]

It is time I opened that box and got on with it! So much late winter wind and rain in the last couple of months has rather dented my productivity.

The aim is threefold: long multi day a to b journeys with minimal recharging time due to a non-trivial solar trailer, trips into the wilds to the end of the battery capacity with a modest solar setup that recharges the bike whilst I hunt snark (obviously only within the season), and day rides with the smaller solar option directly providing part of the energy needed, thus stretching a battery by 50 to 100%.

But first I must build it!

Yours does sound like a very interesting project! Which solar panels will you be using specifically? I do hope you'll post details of your build. This video convinced me to buy Bafang, reasoning if a Bafang motor survived a 13,000km journey to China, one could be relied upon to transport me to work. I expect solar panels have become more efficient since.

 

[Nealh]

From April 1st (not an April fools joke either), my Elec charge will be nearly 29.5kw/h and the SC over 41.5p. Gas equally is going up to over 7p kw/h. Then in Sept I believe the price cap is to rise again, this due to the fact a pretty good deal I was on vanished when the supplier ceased. In my location one can't fix or find another deal as companies aren't taking on new custom via swapping.

 

[Nealh]

Wow Flecc nearly £200 pm seems a lot to me, currently I'm paying £68 for duel fuel but this is likely to rise after April to about £90 - £100, but by then I should have the heating off nearly as the weather should be a little warmer. My supplier says on my fuel usage my bills should be about £333 dearer p.a.
My part time driving job pays for part of my bills so I don't yet have to touch my savings and pension is 9 years away yet, a 12.2% pay rise starting at the beginning of next month should give me another £100+ in my pay and as I work enough hours to be under the taxable fresh hold most of my pay is tax free barring NI (the back door tax ) and a pension contribution.

My best job was last year when I spent £500 - £600 and raised the loft storage floor floor with 150mm joists and insulated, varying the thickness 450mm - 600mm with composite wool insulation above the ceiling joists, the upstairs stays toasty for several hours now once the heating is turned off and I only have the stat on 16c.
We see a difference of about 3 - 4c between downstairs & upstairs, if needed the open fire gets lit.

 

[guerney]

From April 1st (not an April fools joke either), my Elec charge will be nearly 29.5kw/h and the SC over 41.5p. Gas equally is going up to over 7p kw/h. Then in Sept I believe the price cap is to rise again, this due to the fact a pretty good deal I was on vanished when the supplier ceased. In my location one can't fix or find another deal as companies aren't taking on new custom via swapping.

Energy companies are even more likely to go bust, due to this war pushing up prices. I only just managed to get back onto Ebico in time, after their then energy and admin partner Robin Hood went bankrupt and I was thrown to the odious British Gas who lied about maintaining Ebico prices if I stayed, but until Ebico struck a deal with Octopus for supply and Admin, I couldn't switch back anyway... so I foolishly gave British Gas a chance... never again. I think Ebico is the only not-for-profit energy company in the UK, and well worth looking into - if you have that option wherever you live in the beekeeping UK. Sadly, gone are the days of Ebico's "Zero Standing Charge" deal, which is what attracted me to them in the first place.

Ebico

ebico.org.uk

They're not the absolute cheapest, but are pleasant to deal with. Octopus claim they have massive financial backing and will not go out of business... how true this is, I don't know.

 

[flecc]

Your first post on this thread looks like the tip of the iceberg on prices: I saw a reference recently anticipating 28p per kWh for electricity by the end of the year. Truly scary.

It's already here long before the end of the year:

My new price from 1st April is 29.484 pence per unit.

Plus a standing charge of 41.66 pence per day. The odd number endings are because they include the VAT.
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