All hub gears (apart from the Nuvinci which is CVT) require a momentary pause, but as Artstu says, it's no big deal. In fact, the benefit of a hub gear is that if you 'get caught' in the wrong gear, you can change to the correct gear without pedalling. Some people prefer hub gears and others derailleurs. I have always had derailleurs up to 2 years ago but now I'm a big hub gear fan. I would recommend the Alfine 11 over the Nexus 8 if you want to travel at speed under your own power. I have only had a short go with the Nuvinci Harmony so I can't comment on the relative equivalent gear ratios that it covers.
NuVinci CVT (Automatic Gears) Hub
- Thread starter JimB
- Start date
Thanks to you all, but Alex also said "....Huge advantage of hub gears is not having to change down before stopping into the right gear for restarting on a derailleur...."
I had to laugh! I think most newcomers to e-bikes face the same uphill struggle trying to get to grips with all of the options available but I actually got so far lost in the fog that I'd forgotten why I'd started looking at e-bikes in the first place....and it was exactly that point that Alex made. It wasn't so much an issue for me but my wife (and I'll deny having said this!) refuses point blank to plan ahead as far as gear changes were concerned and would end up walking up most hills and I'd have to wait at the top - yes we have derailleurs.
So Monday's test will be simply hub versus CVT but I have taken on board the enthusiasm for Alfine 11 over Nexus 8.
So I'll look at the Alfine 11 Agattus although it looks like the choice of sizes left in the 2012 range is pretty limited - I'm pretty well committed to step-thru rather than x-bar.
Maybe the 2013 i11s will be along soon however.
JimB
I had to laugh! I think most newcomers to e-bikes face the same uphill struggle trying to get to grips with all of the options available but I actually got so far lost in the fog that I'd forgotten why I'd started looking at e-bikes in the first place....and it was exactly that point that Alex made. It wasn't so much an issue for me but my wife (and I'll deny having said this!) refuses point blank to plan ahead as far as gear changes were concerned and would end up walking up most hills and I'd have to wait at the top - yes we have derailleurs.
So Monday's test will be simply hub versus CVT but I have taken on board the enthusiasm for Alfine 11 over Nexus 8.
So I'll look at the Alfine 11 Agattus although it looks like the choice of sizes left in the 2012 range is pretty limited - I'm pretty well committed to step-thru rather than x-bar.
Maybe the 2013 i11s will be along soon however.
JimB
.. glad you're getting focused If you try a step-through Agattu with 11sp Alfine you will definitely see what I mean about the bike size - and comfort factor. Take a look at one side by side with the Sahel i360... it's a bit like a limo vs a mini . Derailleur eBike with no throttle over-ride would be out for me I think, definitely in traffic. That is unless the motor was nippy enough to start on PAS up a steep hill in high gear. It takes too many crank revolutions to multishift effectively on a derailleur bike for my liking... and I completely empathize with your wife. After all, how can you focus properly on the present if you're always having to think about the future ? !
Stick a 350W hub motor on the right bike with a throttle though and you really don't need to worry too much about whether you got the gearing right on a start-up !
Last edited:
I wouldn't right off the Nexus 8, Alex has specific and demanding requirements of his bike. Unless you're a serious press on rider an 11 speed will be a bit wasted. Mine will go up Winnats in 2nd gear on full assist, and I can pedal downhill to about 28 mph. If you want more from a bike than that by all means go for the 11 speed.
This chart shows how you gain a bit at the top. Don't get me wrong I'd prefer the 11 speed, but how often are you going to be wanting to pedal downhill at around 36 mph ?
Here's a good chart
http://www.nuvinci.com/Docs/GearInchChart_N360.pdf
The 'Alfine' is supposedly a better-engineered hub than the 'Nexus', irrespective of gear numbers.
But I think I'm right in saying the latest Nexus 8s have Alfine guts, so the two hubs are equal in that respect.
As Artstu says, the main benefit of the Alfine 11 is higher top gears, which you may not need.
But I think I'm right in saying the latest Nexus 8s have Alfine guts, so the two hubs are equal in that respect.
As Artstu says, the main benefit of the Alfine 11 is higher top gears, which you may not need.
That's correct, I believe the 11 speed Alfine is oil filled and the 8 speed versions grease filled. Alfine 8 is the disc version, Nexus 8 with red stripe for rim brakes, but identical inside. I'd like an 11 speed one day.
I could possibly tweak my gearing up a bit, but that would leave me very exposed if I did ever flatten the battery and need to get up a steep hill under my own power.
Last edited:
Good point Artsu.
In fact I have ascertained since last night (thanks to Tim at 50C) that they are not importing the Alfine 11 models this year and all of the 2012 models left are too big for either of us.
Re speed, I tested a few bikes at Manifold Valley including a KTM Macina Bold which has Shimano Nexus Premium 8 speed hub (don't know the significance of the 'Premium'. That bike was very impressive indeed. I found, however, that I could easily pedal it at 26mph or more (indicated) on level ground and my cadence rate was as high as I would ever want it to be. I would have liked at least one higher gear then but I was on a fairly short test ride and maybe on a much longer one I would have been happy with what it had.
They claim 'up to' 145km with the rather small 8ah battery supplied. I think if it had a 15ah battery it would be right up there as a contender. But I digress, as usual. The point is that I was actually quite happy with the gears once I had remembered that hub gears won't change down under load until you pause pedalling...I actually came to a standstill on the upslope part of that course before I remembered but as Alex has already observed, I was able to change down easily when stationary and it went off like a scalded cat (prob in max assist as I'd been faffing around pushing buttons as we both ran out of steam in 8th gear).
But I take your point and my mind is still open if now a bit more focussed than hitherto.
Regards,
JimB
EDIT: Crossed with RobF and Artsu
In fact I have ascertained since last night (thanks to Tim at 50C) that they are not importing the Alfine 11 models this year and all of the 2012 models left are too big for either of us.
Re speed, I tested a few bikes at Manifold Valley including a KTM Macina Bold which has Shimano Nexus Premium 8 speed hub (don't know the significance of the 'Premium'. That bike was very impressive indeed. I found, however, that I could easily pedal it at 26mph or more (indicated) on level ground and my cadence rate was as high as I would ever want it to be. I would have liked at least one higher gear then but I was on a fairly short test ride and maybe on a much longer one I would have been happy with what it had.
They claim 'up to' 145km with the rather small 8ah battery supplied. I think if it had a 15ah battery it would be right up there as a contender. But I digress, as usual. The point is that I was actually quite happy with the gears once I had remembered that hub gears won't change down under load until you pause pedalling...I actually came to a standstill on the upslope part of that course before I remembered but as Alex has already observed, I was able to change down easily when stationary and it went off like a scalded cat (prob in max assist as I'd been faffing around pushing buttons as we both ran out of steam in 8th gear).
But I take your point and my mind is still open if now a bit more focussed than hitherto.
Regards,
JimB
EDIT: Crossed with RobF and Artsu
You must be a strong rider to get that clunker up to 26 mph on the flat. I found it really hard work above 16 mph, just like my bike, it's not too bad with a bit of slope helping.
My 8 ah battery lasts just 18 to 20 miles up here in the hilly Peak District on full power.
It's not just the top end of the gearing range on 11sp Alfine, it's also to some extent at the bottom end you get an advantage of more appropriate gear selection. It makes most difference if you are not riding under power - as I found very early on when conditioning my battery and winding up 2 miles from home with a full bike load of shopping, some steep climbs back and no power !
Speed-wise, yes - reaching 26mph on the flat on a heavy bike means JimB must be a very strong rider. I guess the eBike is needed to equalise things on a paired ride especially at lower speeds or on hills ? I don't achieve more than 23mph on the flat - and I can't sustain that for long. Not being endowed with a particularly hefty set of quads, despite having 9% body fat I'm not physically strong enough to ride the bike any faster. But I do use gear range 9-11 every day - and often.
On a hub vs CVT I think you will choose the CVT without hesitation if compared to an 8sp. Handy that - as the bike prices for CVT are so much higher lol.
Speed-wise, yes - reaching 26mph on the flat on a heavy bike means JimB must be a very strong rider. I guess the eBike is needed to equalise things on a paired ride especially at lower speeds or on hills ? I don't achieve more than 23mph on the flat - and I can't sustain that for long. Not being endowed with a particularly hefty set of quads, despite having 9% body fat I'm not physically strong enough to ride the bike any faster. But I do use gear range 9-11 every day - and often.
On a hub vs CVT I think you will choose the CVT without hesitation if compared to an 8sp. Handy that - as the bike prices for CVT are so much higher lol.
I don't know if 11 gear ratios are necessary on an electric bike, especially a crank driven one. A wide range of ratio between the lowest and highest can be useful though. I know the 11 speed hub has a wider gear range than the 8 speed, but it isn't that critical on a crank driven bike.
I have an Alfine 8 speed on my bike (Pro Connect) and never felt the need for more ratios. The motor makes each gear ratio much more flexible than when used on muscle power alone. It's possible to pull away in a high gear, thanks to the additional effort provided by the motor and I often find myself skipping several gears at a time as I build up speed. If you wish, you can fit a 16 tooth rear sprocket to the 8 speed hub which will give you a decent top speed at a sensible pedal cadence. You lose out a bit with the lower ratios, but the motor compensates and you can temporarily turn up the power if you start to struggle.
I think the 11 speed hub is aimed more at the unassisted cyclist where more ratios can be useful. For a crank driven electric bike, an 8 speed Nexus / Alfine is entirely adequate, 11 Speed is unnecessary.
FPO
I have an Alfine 8 speed on my bike (Pro Connect) and never felt the need for more ratios. The motor makes each gear ratio much more flexible than when used on muscle power alone. It's possible to pull away in a high gear, thanks to the additional effort provided by the motor and I often find myself skipping several gears at a time as I build up speed. If you wish, you can fit a 16 tooth rear sprocket to the 8 speed hub which will give you a decent top speed at a sensible pedal cadence. You lose out a bit with the lower ratios, but the motor compensates and you can temporarily turn up the power if you start to struggle.
I think the 11 speed hub is aimed more at the unassisted cyclist where more ratios can be useful. For a crank driven electric bike, an 8 speed Nexus / Alfine is entirely adequate, 11 Speed is unnecessary.
FPO
Without touchline technology or an action replay I can't confirm the speed but the whiff of disbelief is so strong that I'm beginning to doubt it myself
Whatever speed it was I still felt that I could have gone a bit faster if I'd had a higher gear...but it doesn't really matter, to me, much.
I'll see how we get on with the Nexus 8 and note Alex has moved from selling 11 speed Alfine to Nuvinci without even batting an eyelid
Must be on commission or the promise of a free repair.
Don't mention double glazing to him, for heaven's sake!
Artsu, maybe one of these days we'll meet up in the hills.
50 Hertz, I hope to find that you are correct, if only to diminish Alex's commission. BTW, you did a sterling job holding off those Mexicans in the Alamo the other day. I nearly wandered along with my Gatling gun but I had a quick look round the corner and you were doing just fine on your own
JimB
Yes one day perhaps. I should have paid more attention to visitors at Wetton Mill. By the way the Macina Bold's display was reading in km/h when I rode it.
Any more of that and you'll be hoping we don't meet up in the hills
In that case you were right...if it'll only do 16 mph flat out it is indeed a 'clunker'.
I suppose I'll have to explain to all those folk I told that I freewheeled back down the hill at 80 that there may have been a calibration issue caused by a previous rider messing with the equipment.
JimB
In that case you were right...if it'll only do 16 mph flat out it is indeed a 'clunker'.
I suppose I'll have to explain to all those folk I told that I freewheeled back down the hill at 80 that there may have been a calibration issue caused by a previous rider messing with the equipment.
JimB
That's a really interesting graphic of the various gear ratios that you posted Artstu. I guess it's down to personal riding style but I find the cadence required to go above 17mph a bit high for comfort in the Nexus 8 top gear. As commented above, the number of gears is not that important with a power assisted bike but the range from lowest to highest is. As I posted earlier, top gear on the 3spd Brompton hub is perfect for riding at 20mph with a fairly relaxed cadence whilst the lowest gear will go up anything.
I'd hazard a guess that your bike is lower geared than mine. My none electric Dahon with a nexus 8 will also go up to about 26 mph whilst pedalling. It's a lot more lively than the KTM above 16 mph and a nicer bike to ride on a windless flat ride.
So, Artsu, does the Macina Cross Nexus 8 have brackets for guards and carrier?
You mention pedalling downhill to the high 20s, I presume that it would be technically possible to pedal up to that speed on the level, if a rider was as fit as me for example? just trying to get an idea of the overall gearing of the bike as I see it can be supplied with a bigger battery with what appears to be a rather extravagant claim re max poss range.
BTW, my Burgman 650 goes up Winnatts without me even changing gear - CVT see
JimB
You mention pedalling downhill to the high 20s, I presume that it would be technically possible to pedal up to that speed on the level, if a rider was as fit as me for example? just trying to get an idea of the overall gearing of the bike as I see it can be supplied with a bigger battery with what appears to be a rather extravagant claim re max poss range.
BTW, my Burgman 650 goes up Winnatts without me even changing gear - CVT see
JimB
Not quite ... seeing as you ruled out 11sp Alfine on account of no availability :I'll see how we get on with the Nexus 8 and note Alex has moved from selling 11 speed Alfine to Nuvinci without even batting an eyelid
That is because the benefits of the greater gearing range for me outweigh the convenience and "just pedal" single speed type riding approach a CVT can offer a leisure cyclist. However without this then pitted against the limitations of the 8sp hub I'd likely plump for the auto-CVT.
Sorry, but imho that's complete b*****s. If you ride above 15.5mph that's when the extra gears are actually needed. There have been many instances of people on here saying that they just didn;t feel that there were sufficient gears on their 8sp bikes once they crossed the assist threshold. A cyclist like JimB who is clearly capable of riding above that speed, imho, is precisely the sort of rider who would benefit. Rather than generalize I have tried to be as honest as possible in the context of the person asking the questions and based on my own experience.
By all means buy whichever bike suits you - but at least if you end up disappointed in some aspects of its capabilities you've taken that decision willingly and in knowledge that same is likely, not a revelation after the event. If you are not disappointed then you made the right choice.
Last edited:
Calm down Dear!
I haven't actually ruled it out, if I believe that will be the right one I'll still get one;
Kalkhoff Agattu Premium I11 Impulse 11-G Alfine 2013 mit 100 EUR Neukundenrabatt - Fahrradhaus Lahn
...amongst many other sites yet to be investigated. Do you think it's worth £2550? (I've converted from kilometres this time).
JimB
No lack of calmness I assure you - just assumed you were only looking at UK-sourced bikes in which case would be a simple case of not being able to get hold of one - so one moves on and looks at what else is there to choose from.
On whether it's worth the money ? Always a difficult one and depends whether you mean relatively in the context of the cost of other bikes on the market or absolutely.
Relatively, personally I'd say yes. Having seen the seriously ludicrous prices asked for some hybrid eBikes with a "well-recognized branding" but very dubious specs mechanically and (to me) "toy"-like frames, both Bosch and other systems.
In absolute terms - without a shadow of a doubt, no. I think pretty much all bikes available (at both upper and lower end of the price scale, eBike and regular) cost about double what I think they are really worth or I'd be willing to pay for them with experience and hindsight. Most components about 3-4 times what I think they are worth - but clearly the market disagrees. I blame Bradley Williams and the amount of disposable income for hobbying and leisure in the world today !
Were it not for the battery ageing aspect of 2nd hand eBikes and need to be able to properly verify use (very hard without a non-resettable mileometer ... although you get that on the Kalkhoff LCD and some other types of bike) I would, like regular bikes, go for a good 2nd hand one - if I could get my hands on one at a sensible price !
- just assumed you were only looking at UK-sourced bikes in which case would be a simple case of not being able to get hold of one - so one moves on and looks at what else is there to choose from. On whether it's worth the money ? Always a difficult one and depends whether you mean relatively in the context of the cost of other bikes on the market or absolutely.
Relatively, personally I'd say yes. Having seen the seriously ludicrous prices asked for some hybrid eBikes with a "well-recognized branding" but very dubious specs mechanically and (to me) "toy"-like frames, both Bosch and other systems.
In absolute terms - without a shadow of a doubt, no. I think pretty much all bikes available (at both upper and lower end of the price scale, eBike and regular) cost about double what I think they are really worth or I'd be willing to pay for them with experience and hindsight. Most components about 3-4 times what I think they are worth - but clearly the market disagrees. I blame Bradley Williams and the amount of disposable income for hobbying and leisure in the world today !
Were it not for the battery ageing aspect of 2nd hand eBikes and need to be able to properly verify use (very hard without a non-resettable mileometer ... although you get that on the Kalkhoff LCD and some other types of bike) I would, like regular bikes, go for a good 2nd hand one - if I could get my hands on one at a sensible price !
Last edited:
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
