NuVinci CVT (Automatic Gears) Hub

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Tim, good to communicate with you!

It has the twist grip.

All the best

David

 

[Tim]

In reply to Electrifying cycles chap - but NuVinci Harmony was conceived specifically for electric bikes with decent long-range batteries that aren't going to run out on you. Treacly ride when unpowered is kind of missing the point...

I'm surprised that some ebike manufacturers went for the old manual N360 hub rather than the nifty new automatic i360 Harmony.

I'm really looking forward to this heart-monitoring integration with Harmony - my jaw dropped when they told us about that, cannot wait to see how it works in practice. They've kept the price sensible as well.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Well done Tim, we wish you all the best!

Kind regards

David

 

[Tim]

Hi David, maybe we'll catch up at the Eden Project event next weekend if you're around?
Been a while
Cheers,
Tim

 

[50 Hertz]

NuVinci is great for electric bikes but feels like you are treading through treacle when unpowered a number of independant reviews have said this e.g. electric bike magazine. This is more noticeable on NuVinci when compared to Shimano Alfine or Nexus! However there are plenty of options if you want to go for NuVinci KTM, Moustache etc.

I really don't think that the transmission drag introduced by the NuVinci hub is an issue. Why would you buy an electric bike and then ride it with the power turned off? It makes no sense.

This heart rate monitor thing sounds like a gimmick to me. The best sensors for telling you when to change gear are your leg muscles and eyes. To use heart rate as a gear change trigger is like monitoring the MPG of your car to detect low tyre pressure. There are better ways to do both.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I will try to get there for the weekend/early week Tim, but we have another exhibition at the end of the week so can't make both unfortunately.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

In reply to Electrifying cycles chap - but NuVinci Harmony was conceived specifically for electric bikes with decent long-range batteries that aren't going to run out on you. Treacly ride when unpowered is kind of missing the point...

I'm surprised that some ebike manufacturers went for the old manual N360 hub rather than the nifty new automatic i360 Harmony.

I'm really looking forward to this heart-monitoring integration with Harmony - my jaw dropped when they told us about that, cannot wait to see how it works in practice. They've kept the price sensible as well.

That maybe true but some people want to ride bikes unpowered as well or beyond 15.5mph so it is important that this is known. Also KTM has the automatic transmission. At the end of the day it depends what you want from your electric bike.

David

 

[Tim]

This heart rate monitor thing sounds like a gimmick to me. The best sensors for telling you when to change gear are your leg muscles and eyes. To use heart rate as a gear change trigger is like monitoring the MPG of your car to detect low tyre pressure. There are better ways to do both.

Here's an example of where it might be useful. You have a heart problem and your doctor urges you to take some exercise as part of the recovery. You ask him if cycling is OK and he says "yes, but try to keep your heart rate below 140 if you can". So you think, that's all very well but it's hilly round here and I need both hands on the handlebars, I can't cycle round taking my pulse all the time. So until this Ergo Impulse came along you just had to cycle carefully...

This new system means you can input your target heart rate and the heart monitor, transmission and pedal assistance will work in concert to keep your heart rate as close to 140bpm (for example) as possible, regardless of terrain. Up hill and down dale at a constant 140bpm.

As well as riders with heart problems, those who want to lose a bit of weight can target a higher heart rate (I think it's 145bpm and above for me) which will mean you'll ride with just the amount of effort to burn calories and lose weight without getting tired and out of breath.

So, it's a genuinely useful innovation for people with specific health issues, people who want to lose weight and people who have a reason to train at a particular heart rate.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

I really don't think that the transmission drag introduced by the NuVinci hub is an issue. Why would you buy an electric bike and then ride it with the power turned off? It makes no sense.

This heart rate monitor thing sounds like a gimmick to me. The best sensors for telling you when to change gear are your leg muscles and eyes. To use heart rate as a gear change trigger is like monitoring the MPG of your car to detect low tyre pressure. There are better ways to do both.

Just depends how you want to ride it and what speed e.g. whether you ride it above 15.5mph. I think it is a good system for the right person, horses for courses (and not the food variety!).

 

[JimB]

.....................This new system means you can input your target heart rate and the heart monitor, transmission and pedal assistance will work in concert to keep your heart rate as close to 140bpm (for example) as possible, regardless of terrain. Up hill and down dale at a constant 140bpm......

QUOTE]

Tim, like a lot of people I have a heart 'issue' and use my cross trainer with a target heart rate program in exactly the way you describe. Iknow you're going to tell me when you get these bikes in but as this has come up here can you tell me;

1. Whether the bike comes with a heart rate monitor and whether that's Bluetooth or not? The premium (in price) over the NuVinci Harmony would cover the cost of a receiver on the bike and a Bluetooth Chest Monitor many times over so one would hope so.

2. On many occasions owners may wish to ride the bike like an 'ordinary' NuVinci auto - ie without the heart rate program, can this be done?

3. Are the 2013 models arriving with the 17.00ah batteries?

JimB

 

[Tim]

.....................This new system means you can input your target heart rate and the heart monitor, transmission and pedal assistance will work in concert to keep your heart rate as close to 140bpm (for example) as possible, regardless of terrain. Up hill and down dale at a constant 140bpm......

QUOTE]

Tim, like a lot of people I have a heart 'issue' and use my cross trainer with a target heart rate program in exactly the way you describe. Iknow you're going to tell me when you get these bikes in but as this has come up here can you tell me;

1. Whether the bike comes with a heart rate monitor and whether that's Bluetooth or not? The premium (in price) over the NuVinci Harmony would cover the cost of a receiver on the bike and a Bluetooth Chest Monitor many times over so one would hope so.

2. On many occasions owners may wish to ride the bike like an 'ordinary' NuVinci auto - ie without the heart rate program, can this be done?

3. Are the 2013 models arriving with the 17.00ah batteries?

JimB

Hi Jim - don't know about the heart monitor yet. They said it was wireless when I asked. I presume rider can turn off the Ergo mode and use it just like a regular Impulse bike, though you get the LCD display like on the C11 Premium - an updated version of it anyway.

It's a 15Ah battery on the Harmony models, I think Kalkhoff wanted to keep the price reasonable. Sixty to 75 miles is plenty for most people!

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

I would imagine is similar to this though link lacks detail (Daum make the impulse system)
http://www.daum-electronic.de/en/download/daum_pedelec_0005-GB-web.pdf

Perhaps I should be asking for commission

 

[JimB]

Hi Jim - don't know about the heart monitor yet. They said it was wireless when I asked. I presume rider can turn off the Ergo mode and use it just like a regular Impulse bike, though you get the LCD display like on the C11 Premium - an updated version of it anyway.

It's a 15Ah battery on the Harmony models, I think Kalkhoff wanted to keep the price reasonable. Sixty to 75 miles is plenty for most people!

Hopefully the details will emerge soon Tim.

In the meantime I hope you'll forgive me for saying that I get a bit weary of people dictating to me what range I should be happy with, particularly on something selling for the thick end of £2,500 - however 'reasonable' that price might seem to Derby Cycles stakeholders.

Even if 60 to 70 miles is plenty for most people (I haven't seen that survey) I believe that individuals should retain the right to have their own ideas about what kind of mileage they want to have available to them in between charging points.

Kalkhoff claim 180kms max possible range for this bike, even if that's ridden by a 6 stone pro and down hill all the way with a 40 mph tail wind.

Maybe it would be useful if manufacturers actually gave some indication of their procedures for arriving at these figures but sadly the more I research the subject the more I see just smoke and mirrors.

JimB

 

[Tim]

40 mph tail wind.

Maybe it would be useful if manufacturers actually gave some indication of their procedures for arriving at these figures but sadly the more I research the subject the more I see just smoke and mirrors.

JimB

Which is why we always quote actual mileage figures reported by our customers rather than the best-case scenario ranges the manufacturer uses.

Their assumption for that 180km figure is:

Fully charged 15Ah battery
10 - 15 degree centigrade ambient temperature
Low windspeed
Average speed of 22kph
Eco mode
Weight of 105 - 110kg including bike

They go on to quote 120km/75 miles in middle or sport mode most riders use most of the time, given those conditions, which has been borne out in reality, in the UK.

 

[MikeyBikey]

Wonder if this Bluetooth input interface will be used to control the nuvinci harmony by Beta Brainwave Bio-feedback Reinforcement :-D
Mind you, I'm only half joking ;-) (get it? "mind you").
Sorry, couldn't resist, cheers, Mike

 

[grldtnr]

An e-bike dragster, .....what a concept D8veh are you working on one?

It's been around on drag-racing motorcycles for years. Hard to believe that some makers are so insular they wouldn't know about it.

 

[103Alex1]

Why would you buy an electric bike and then ride it with the power turned off? It makes no sense.

It does make sense - you ride with power when heavily loaded, on long uphill stretches, if you're in a hurry, when stopping and starting in town due to traffic lights everywhere and for the trip to and from where you want to ride off-road. Once you hit a cruising speed on a long ride above 15.5-16.5mph there's next to no power assist anyway so may as well turn it off, or just leave it on and you might get the odd 'nudge' if you start slacking too much. On long downhills there's no point having it on either. You'll be going far more than 15.5mph in all likelihood and gravity does better than any limited motor with a little help from the pedals.

Take it out on trails and again you'll likely only need it up significant hills. Lots of conditions where it may as well be off for quite a few people.

In the meantime I hope you'll forgive me for saying that I get a bit weary of people dictating to me what range I should be happy with, particularly on something selling for the thick end of £2,500 - however 'reasonable' that price might seem to Derby Cycles stakeholders.

The bit that isn't usually talked about - on full power max assist in stop-start conditions such as town riding, and against significant headwinds within assist range, provided no extended 15-20% gradient hills and staying at or just short of the speed assist limits, expect about 35-42 miles off it with a loaded weight of around 80-85kg before the power drops to the point you need to recharge. Maybe less if you or the bike is loaded very heavy. It's a lot better than most in practice.

I quite agree with all the stats and generally low ranges of most bikes on the market and the nonsense talked about this being enough for most people. Of course it isn't - it's what the battery technology and state of advancement allows within the profit margins sought by sellers and bike weight considerations for the marketing blurb.

It's far better now than even 6 months ago - I basically had a choice of about 2-3 bikes I could find with a sensible prospect for real-life range off a charge (a fraction of max stated range) to use as a main workhorse bike. I class Bosch high-capacity battery bikes as a category but I wouldn't buy a Bosch anything (especially to rely on as a means of transport - no offence to Bosch bike owners but I personally have zero confidence in Bosch and still don't believe the realistic full power range of their bigger battery won't be short of the 540Wh Impulse battery). I would have been much happier with a 20Ah and a full-power range of 60 miles especially for that money , given bike choice was driven by range over all else at the time. No prospect of getting caught out with that in anything but very unlucky circumstances.

If your battery capacity is light you'll be less likely to attempt longer rides so your bike may well end up limiting your choices and how far you are confident to go, especially in tougher conditions.

Manufacturers need to understand the fact people capable of longer rides are buying their bikes is only because the "legit bike" market is inherently so limited in choice on battery range and supply choice is hampering this. Am personally not interested in carting spare batteries around in a rucksack on a walk when I stow my bike and get off to enjoy the bits you can't cycle !!! ... or having to charge the battery at the end of every ride.... or dealing with low voltage in the final stretches home of a long ride because you can't operate comfortably with a decent margin of capacity left over if you want to put the power on full because you're cream crackered (or battery is getting on a bit). All these things are relevant when appraising how much overspec is appropriate to cover your preferred comfort parameters at the start.

15Ah was pretty much the maximum I could get at the end of last Summer for a +/- £2.5k outlay. I'd have liked 3-5Ah more and still would in principle... except the local area is just that bit too hilly to inspire me to ride the Kalkhoff on very long journeys now and too big to take around to more suitable places without a campervan or moving to a flatter area of the country so I probably wouldn't get the chance to use it for very long trips out as I'd have liked to at the start. Not without one of afore-mentioned coming about anyhow. Seriously doubt any of the competing dealer-sold bikes would be any different on that front. Shame actually - has been an expensive way of finding these things out.

 

[jackhandy]

Very true - factoring in the cost of a second battery is pretty much essential if you're reasonably active, have access to some decent rides & buy a bike with a 10ah battery because "That's all Sir will need (at his advanced state of decay)"

 

[quilly21]

Hi Tim,

I have ridden an ebike with a manual NuVinci and I must say it is very easy to change with no effort at all.
I am keen to try a nuvinci powered Kalkhoff, but tell me can you override the heart monitor thing.
I really don't feel I would like this feature. I would like the constant cadence control of the Harmony though.
I was very tempted by the 11 speed hub version of the Kalkhoff I tried but it still needs a stop in peddling under power to change, so for this reason I think the NuVinci may fit the bill.
Are you taking them to any shows or exhibitions?

 

[quilly21]

Hi Alex,

What range do you comfortably get from your Kalkhoff?
I have a hilly commute and use a Panasonic powered Kalkhoff, which is fine for my needs but I charge at both ends of my journey. 33 mile round trip with around 1200ft of climb on the whole journey.
There is a guy who has the 350w Pro connect S with 18Ah who travels a slightly shorter part of the same route without so much climb and he can't manage a round trip without cycling without power for part of the journey.
So interested to know what you consider possible with the impulse.