NuVinci CVT (Automatic Gears) Hub

[103Alex1]

Hi Alex,

What range do you comfortably get from your Kalkhoff?
I have a hilly commute and use a Panasonic powered Kalkhoff, which is fine for my needs but I charge at both ends of my journey. 33 mile round trip with around 1200ft of climb on the whole journey.
There is a guy who has the 350w Pro connect S with 18Ah who travels a slightly shorter part of the same route without so much climb and he can't manage a round trip without cycling without power for part of the journey.
So interested to know what you consider possible with the impulse.

Hi

It's feasible. You may well get away with the round trip without charging, depending on how much of it you cycle over assist limits or on lower assist modes and how efficiently you draw the power assist on the hills. The Panasonic 350W Pro Connect probably draws considerably more battery power (and gives considerably more assistance) on the hills than the 250W Impulse. You would hope so - it's an 'S-Pedelec'. When you have the power there and regularly do long journeys it's tempting to use it.

This probably accounts for his difficulty completing the journey on that battery, especially if he uses high assist on the climbs. It really depends on rider fitness and conditions when it gets that marginal.

Long hills on full power hit your battery very hard. 30-35 miles is at the absolute tops expectation off any 250W retail eBike readily available in UK in a very hilly area imho and you'd be best off taking over from the motor when you can even then. If you get more then it's a bonus.

Power a bike more and even with a 20Ah battery I wouldn't expect more than 25 miles off a 500W CST / 30A controller, for example. That's using a medium amount of assist (out of total available assistance - i.e. a fair bit nonetheless !) on average in hilly terrain on a climb-heavy route and full throttle assist only on long 15-20% slopes. Pull any more power on the easier stretches and the range would likely drop a bit further but need to finish building in the bike electrics and fit the Cycle Analyst in order to get it out to test that properly. The power available on hills makes a big difference to range as well as limiting top speed on a derestricted bike.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Over 3000 miles on my 500w BPM with 20aH 36v battery, I averaged 15wh per mile. This involved a fair bit of commuting where I just pedalled steadily all the time. I would describe the commute as a couple of long steep hills, otherwise fairly flat. About a third of the miles were pleasure riding where the journeys were very hilly. That gave an average range of about 53 miles without ever pedalling hard enough to puff. Now I only ride for pleasure, so my rides are very hilly and I average about 20wH per mile, which has reduced the range to about 40 miles. If I go on a longer journey, I just pedal a bit harder and it's easy to go over 60 miles without over-exerting myself. A cruise control or PAS level control makes a substantial difference to achieve a long range on any particular journey. When you use throttle only, it's too easy to use extra power that you don't really need.

 

[JimB]

.....................Manufacturers need to understand the fact people capable of longer rides are buying their bikes is only because the "legit bike" market is inherently so limited in choice on battery range and supply choice is hampering this. Am personally not interested in carting spare batteries around in a rucksack on a walk when I stow my bike and get off to enjoy the bits you can't cycle !!! ... or having to charge the battery at the end of every ride.... or dealing with low voltage in the final stretches home of a long ride because you can't operate comfortably with a decent margin of capacity left over if you want to put the power on full because you're cream crackered (or battery is getting on a bit). All these things are relevant when appraising how much overspec is appropriate to cover your preferred comfort parameters at the start..................

At last!......I couldn't have put it better...and wish I'd put as well!

JimB

 

[103Alex1]

Now I only ride for pleasure, so my rides are very hilly and I average about 20wH per mile, which has reduced the range to about 40 miles. If I go on a longer journey, I just pedal a bit harder and it's easy to go over 60 miles without over-exerting myself. A cruise control or PAS level control makes a substantial difference to achieve a long range on any particular journey. When you use throttle only, it's too easy to use extra power that you don't really need.

That's substantially more than I was hoping for so will be a real bonus if the range tops out as well as that. I'm used to riding mostly at 17-20mph though rather than 12-15mph unless it's a significantly uphill stretch, so will be interesting how well bike handles that alongside pedal effort and what the impact is on battery use - it's a case of playing about between the cruise and the normal throttles to try to strike a balance I guess.

 

[103Alex1]

Tried out a Kalkhoff Sahel i360 at Eden. Impressive hill climbing on a reasonable slope and a very nice ride. There wasn't enough challenging terrain to see how it would do above assist limits but for a comfy average ride it seemed a very good option for people who don't want Dutch bikes and are happy with a 26" smaller bike with a big range (540Wh battery). Definitely a better ride than the 8sp Alfine. I'd hazard not as good outside the core range as the Alfine 11sp (when it's tuned and the chain is tight !).

It wasn't as responsive or grunty as the E-motion Neo Xtrem though .... for riding a bike to higher performance levels I'd probably buy one of those instead .. or if you don't want the long wheelbase and sturdy cargo-friendly frame of the Agattu.

 

[JimB]

Interesting. I haven't yet seen one of those but to test ride shortly if and when the suppliers get a Kalkhoff Pro Connect Xion X27 for me to look at although from what I've seen on the German forum (moans about failed deliveries) I'm not holding my breath.

Re the i360 I did wonder if it was quite a small bike but it's difficult to tell from pictures alone.

From what you've said it may not be for me.

Pity about the short course, I still haven't seen any reports about how this transmission feels to work in unassisted mode.

JimB

 

[103Alex1]

I looked at that Xion on the website out of curiosity, but the regen put me off and the aspect of the Storck so often moaned about (auto-braking effect on downhills at speed) seems to be an issue with this system too.

The Agattu C11 is a really imposing bike especially in a step-through - not something you notice so much with the C8 - but the Sahel looked very compact in comparison. Like a regular hybrid bike size and basic appearance. It's the frame geometry more than the wheel size - the bike looks much lower to the ground and 'normal' and I barely registered the extra length to accommodate the battery behind the seatpost. I liked the Sahel paintwork more than the Agattu C8 for what that's worth . If you were in the market for many of the Bosch bikes or the like, the Sahel is very nice alternative with decent battery and system, and I never understood why it wasn't more popular. Being 26" rather than a 28" bike i'll be nippy too. It comes with Big Apple tyres like the Storck Raddar Multitask.

I didn't try Sahel with the power off - unfortunately a bit tight on time, and it was belting down with rain whilst I tested the bikes so that did keep my trials to the key priorities somewhat

 

[JimB]

............but the Sahel looked very compact in comparison. Like a regular hybrid bike size and basic appearance. It's the frame geometry more than the wheel size - the bike looks much lower to the ground and 'normal' and I barely registered the extra length to accommodate the battery behind the seatpost. I liked the Sahel paintwork more than the Agattu C8 for what that's worth . If you were in the market for many of the Bosch bikes or the like, the Sahel is very nice alternative with decent battery and system, and I never understood why it wasn't more popular. Being 26" rather than a 28" bike i'll be nippy too. It comes with Big Apple tyres

I notice from the 50C site that in the case of the Agattu i8 HS Step-thru (not quite the same as the one you tested) that in frame size 45cm it's a 26" wheel but in 46cm frame size up it's a 28" wheel.

Just wondering if it was one with the smallest frame that they had down at Eden.

JimB

 

[103Alex1]

I didn't try or see the 2013 Agattus at Eden - only tried the 2012 C8 & I have the C11. The C8 I tried last year at NEC had a Medium frame and was a 28", but the geometry wasn't as imposing as C11.

The Sahel was noticeably more compact than the 2012 Agattus.

 

[JimB]

Alex, I have somewhat belatedly realised that I have no idea what bike you are referring to as 'the Sahel'.

I made an incorrect assumption earlier.

I am lying down and waving a white flag.



JimB

 

[103Alex1]

Alex, I have somewhat belatedly realised that I have no idea what bike you are referring to as 'the Sahel'.

I made an incorrect assumption earlier.

I am lying down and waving a white flag.



JimB

Lol. No worries it all gets blooming confusing - too many bikes to keep track of ! It's this one

Kalkhoff Sahel i360 NuVi Harmony 50cm HE 28"

Comes in step-through also :

50cycles Products

It has the i360 automatic shifters rather than the Revoshifter that you get on the Sahel Nuvinvi but except for that so far as I'm aware it's identical.

 

[Jonah]

I can confirm that at Eden, the Agattu step-thru (2012 model) was small framed with 26" wheels whilst the crossbar (2013 model) was medium with 28" wheels. I have both these bikes available for demonstration rides at our North Devon electric bike hire base. I believe that both the Sahels at Eden with the Nuvinci Harmony hub were 26" wheels. I do not have these to try out in North Devon as yet but hope to get one soon. Apart from the automatic hub gearing system, the main difference between the Agattu and the Sahel is that the Sahel has rigid front forks.

 

[JimB]

Lol. No worries it all gets blooming confusing - too many bikes to keep track of ! It's this one

Kalkhoff Sahel i360 NuVi Harmony 50cm HE 28"

Comes in step-through also :

50cycles Products

It has the i360 automatic shifters rather than the Revoshifter that you get on the Sahel Nuvinvi but except for that so far as I'm aware it's identical.

I seems I was pretty much on track after all Alex...thanks for that.

I'm waiting to hear confirmation of test rides at Loughborough on the Agattu i8 HS and the Sahel i360 Harmony (both Step-thru) and they will be in competition with a Chinese built crank drive 7 speed derailleur which would cost me almost exactly half, including spare 15ah battery and additional charger so these Kalks need to be pretty special with asking prices for their batteries almost as much as a half decent complete Chinese bike.

JimB

 

[103Alex1]

I seems I was pretty much on track after all Alex...thanks for that.

I'm waiting to hear confirmation of test rides at Loughborough on the Agattu i8 HS and the Sahel i360 Harmony (both Step-thru) and they will be in competition with a Chinese built crank drive 7 speed derailleur which would cost me almost exactly half, including spare 15ah battery and additional charger so these Kalks need to be pretty special with asking prices for their batteries almost as much as a half decent complete Chinese bike.

JimB

Ah ! They are completely different types of purchases and completely different markets. I got the Kalkhoff as I wanted a bike that looked and felt special, was legal to ride in rest of EU (if I'd gone over there with it this year), had high quality components and finish, would hold value better as only intending to keep for a year plus also had the controller software to manage the power delivery on a crank drive more intuitively for a more natural cycling feel. Plus the long range of course. I ruled out Kalkhoff C8 because it didn't have a high quality LCD display with all that info on it, which was a 'must have' not an 'optional extra' for me. But all that said it was only the C11 excited me enough to part with the money.. the ones with lower spec and especially lower gearing range didn't do enough to tempt me to pay all that.

Would never compare VFM to Chinese built bikes - completely different ball game and completely different expectations. Only you can tell if you're prepared to pay twice as much for one or the other after riding both. But I think the differences are more pronounced on premium German bikes compared to Chinese ones than they are on the cheaper range models. You pay a heck of a lot of money for the quality and design / component / (and hopefully) build improvements though.

It's a funny thing with bikes - so hard to tell from a picture or description. I've always had a dilemma with road bikes - for me the feel of the shifting system and levers is paramount and having tried several times to persuade myself I'd be OK with something less than 105 (reluctantly) or Ultegra (preferably), every time I sit on one with the lower range components I realize I'd not want to ride the bike at all and would only do so out of need and lack of choice in the matter. Parting with a grand to wind up with a solution like that is something I just never managed to do. However, spending £1.5 - £2k for what to me is an acceptable (but still not mind-blowingly great) option is daylight robbery. So I still don't own a road bike at all !

 

[JimB]

............However, spending £1.5 - £2k for what to me is an acceptable (but still not mind-blowingly great) option is daylight robbery..........QUOTE]

That, precisely, has become the biggest bug in my decision making process.

I'm buying two bikes and whilst I have available the funds to spend £5,000 on them quite frankly it seems obscene when you can go out and buy a new car (even it is a Dacia) for the same money.

I love gadgets and it would be great to have a bike with 27 gears (most of which I wouldn't use) and hanging with cycling gizmos that people in the know might Ooooh and Aaaaah over but with the type of cycling we do - slightly leisurely use of tracks, canal paths, reservoirs, forests and the like - is there a need for them (separating needs and wants has been difficult).

The Kalk has pretty good range on the 15ah battery they stick on the UK model although in Germany the same bikes have 17ah. And at £600 a pop for each spare it hardly bears thinking about!

The supposed quality and price brings the issue of security vulnerability especially if touring (by car) with them, which I want to do. With two bikes on the tow bar mount bike rack it is one thing to have two x £800 (minus the cost of the batteries at £300 each) - these would be included on my household insurance...but another thing altogether if there were 2 x £2500 on there overnight even with heavy duty motorcycle locks. I'm not sure I'd be able to sleep.

On the touring front I've come to the conclusion that whilst the Kalks (and others - KTM HS400 dual drive is a favourite) have pretty good range a lowish cost second battery will give even more range and a lot more flexibility bearing in mind how long these things take to charge.

You mention bikes retaining their value. I'm not arguing with you but my view is that e-bike technology is moving quite quickly now (at least elsewhere in Europe) and it's quite possible, in my opinion, that what we buy today will be worth pretty much s*d all in a year or so because the tech will already have moved on so much. In that respect I believe you should expect a much bigger hit with a premium priced bike.

The question I keep asking myself is - will I get twice the quality and twice the performance and twice the enjoyment if I pay twice as much and the answer (I talk to myself a lot these days) is invariably - NO fool!

And that's why I'm testing a £2000 bike (with a view, actually, to probably go for the £2500 Ergo if I choose Kalk) and also seriously considering an £800 takeaway.

You're right, they're not all locked up yet!



JimB

 

[103Alex1]

Some very interesting thoughts and considerations there. For the sort of riding you do I'd personally plump for either a smaller Dutch bike for carrying (when you see a Medium Agattu step-through for example you will realize what I mean) or a MTB depending on how much forest-type riding you intend on doing.

On the batteries bear in mind a Kalkhoff battery likely lasts 2 - 2 1/2 times the number of charge cycles a typical Chinese battery lasts. This is one key reason for the price discrepancy and also accounts for why resale values of relatively new bikes are high. The technology hasn't moved on that much to be honest except in battery and fashion terms. I personally wouldn't have an automatic car or an automatic shifting on a bike - not something you can fix readily if it goes on the blink without major cost.

But I think you can expect a £700 hit on a moderately used premium bike bought for RRP in 1st 12 months in good condition, half of that being what a new one ends up available for when next year's models come out and the rest attributable to usage and warranty erosion.

Things like the Ergo are rather like Ultegra Di2 etc ... you will likely lose a stack more money on them in 1st year because when the technology spreads (as it inevitably will) and other new gadgets and gizmo ideas come out they'll simply not fetch the novelty premiums. If the HRM is something which matters for health reasons or because you are training on the bike perhaps it's useful but I still have my doubts about it.

Also how you'd actually react to a bike which assists in response to your physical signs of effort in practice. It's very hard to tell without a long test ride. There's an upper limit to peak output assistance capabilities of many motors and I wonder how this one will sustain peak output when you really need it even if your HR is crying out for it - or how much you'd want to over-ride it if it sags on journeys you want to make with less effort but where your HR might not be the best indicator of what power level you want. It's all a bit scientific for me - and could be very good or a complete irritation you disable and wonder why you bothered with after a few rides !

I definitely share your views on the cost thing - eBikes and associated expenditure have cost me well over £5k since October trying to get a combo that I think is adequate and fulfilling what I was after, and I still don't have it, making do with a many compromises for astronomic outlays. It's blooming expensive as a hobby if you don't make savings on cars alongside. Later in the year I may get rid of both my bikes and put the money back to a car.

In a leisure context, the good bikes I want to ride are priced as an expensive indulgence and a luxury (or wind up costing the same), and I'd not get inspired to ride the others regularly - only the best ones I've tried (or the one I built and am still finishing) would make me want to get on them by choice rather than need. As utility / mobility aids eBikes are great and fulfill a function. But having ridden more miles in 6 months than the rest of my life put together in a mix of terrains I think I can now say there are other pursuits I'd choose instead for leisure. I enjoy enough of them - especially now the decent weather is returning - but cycling is pretty much crowding the lot out of my life, financially and logistically, for a whole host of reasons.

It's definitely not giving back commensurately what other activities did for me at the moment and that's the key test. It was good riding in Winter as it kept depression at bay and kept my fitness up. But now I feel there are other things I'd rather do. Going to finish my build and get a proper few months out of it alongside a few other pursuits (hopefully !). The Trek is a corker and it's about as good as you could hope for in a bike to be fair so it deserves a decent crack. Then think about next year and perhaps move on / back to the things I've always really loved doing.

If you really don't think the expensive bikes are worth the money and the cheapos are just too basic then consider sticking a couple of decent Chinese kits on well-performing good quality (high-end) 2nd hand bikes that are actually custom-built for the terrain you want to ride in and you really like the feel of. It'll likely be no more outlay overall than a Chinese ready-made but if it makes you want to ride it because you like the bike then you've got yourself a nice compromise without spending a king's ransom.

 

[JimB]

........ For the sort of riding you do I'd personally plump for either a smaller Dutch bike for carrying (when you see a Medium Agattu step-through for example you will realize what I mean) or a MTB depending on how much forest-type riding you intend on doing......

Just to make sure I've got this right Alex when you refer to the Medium Agattu are you referring to the Agattu Premium C11 Impulse (2012 model)?

Regarding all the rest of my ramblings one of my favourite maxims has always been "the quality is remembered long after the price has been forgotten" - which is probably in the root of your own philosophy and which will probably be the overriding factor in my own final decision.

Thanks for all of your input.

Whilst we're testing the the Agattu i8 HS step-thru and the Sahel i360 Harmony Step-thru on Monday this is so that I can make a decision regarding Nuvinci over traditional gears and also to see whether the 8 speed suffers from the issue of having to pause pedalling to change down under load (does the 11 speed Alfine also require this?).

If I don't like the auto for any reason and the hub gears all require a pause to change gear that may swing me to derailleurs (unless someone's going to chip in now and ruin my day and tell me they're the same) and the KTM Macina HS 400 dual drive will move further up the list.

I'm really beginning to wish I hadn't promised my son and his partner our two perfectly adequate push bikes!

JimB

 

[Artstu]

and also to see whether the 8 speed suffers from the issue of having to pause pedalling to change down under load (does the 11 speed Alfine also require this?).

It really isn't that much of an issue when you get used to it. You soon get the knack.

 

[RobF]

It really isn't that much of an issue when you get used to it. You soon get the knack.

Agreed.

Neither a deraileur nor an Alfine change well under load.

Never tried a NuVinci, but it looks like it might be able to do that.

If so, it could be the deciding factor for JimB.

 

[103Alex1]

In short, yes basically all hub gears bar a continuous transmission will require a pause in pedalling for gear changing. It's not something which bothers me as it's so momentary and on a decent bike you've hardly a chance to change up before you're at 15mph or so and therefore chances of losing momentum to the point your riding speed and flow are unduly interrupted are minimal. Unless you are fixated on riding with constant cadence - in which case a Panasonic might be a thought - this is an issue which preoccupies road bikers and time triallers, and isn't really to my way of thinking of any practical relevance to eBiking.

Huge advantage of hub gears is not having to change down before stopping into the right gear for restarting on a derailleur. In any kind of traffic it is a complete pain in the neck as you can never predict and change fast enough in town road traffic. That's why a throttle is best anywhere outside the leisurely surroundings of the traffic-free countryside .. you don't get caught out as you throttle through a high gear stop until you're in the right gear. However, in the traffic-free countryside the only reason I'd feel a derailleur is worth it on a crank drive is for aggressive control of gearing in challenging off-road conditions, i.e. very rocky mountain trails, and maybe fast off-road descents.

If it was me, I'd just convert your push bikes with a couple of CSTs or a Bafang kit and a battery. Total cost a grand. Four grand left over for a couple of nice Summer holidays for you and the other half Tell the kids dad's changed his mind lol.