News: 50Cycles launch the Kalkhoff Agattu Pedelec

[Miles]

intriguing, Miles! Do I detect some diabolically devious handiwork going on? Give us a clue - 500miles at what sort of average speed, say?

Nope! Just making the point that you have to know the assist-ratio exactly, that's all

Edit: I had to delete one of your "grins" in order to post this - only 4 "grins" per post, it seems....

 

[coops]

Ah yes, I see - so my not quite quick enough edited addition to my last post was the answer then i.e. what average rider assist level... I wasn't even going to start asking about terrain 'slopiness'... and 500 miles is a lot of musclepower assist on a standard battery size, in any terrain! But your point is taken .

I used to think ebikes were complex, till I looked into them more, and now I realise they're very complex to understand!

Have a grin on me (only 3 here)!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

In connection with Miles' comment, A to B's test of the Brompton Nano was a classic of the misleading assist ratio genre.

The range test in fairly level country was at an average of over 16 mph with a motor that only assisted at up to 13/14 mph, according to battery state. They recorded a "range" of around 48 miles I think, but to me that was just a test of the rider's endurance. The road speed was beyond the point of motor contribution much of the time, the assist ratio very lopsided. In fairness, they did observe that some riders would get very much less range, possibly less than half as much.

Their Quando test was completely the reverse assist ratio, the motor belting the bike along at 16 plus mph, with the rider's one 54" gear left uselessly trailing behind. The result? 15 miles range.
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[Cyclezee]

What about the Raleigh Deutschland pedelec versions, they would seem to be identical to Kalkhoff only rebadged with models like Dover and Leicester. Check them out at Raleigh Bikes - Best of britain bikes -
Couple of ironical things, they are called 'Best of Britain' and 50 cycles is based in Leicestershire, but they are probably all made in the same Chinese factory and 50 cycles imports the one with the German name. Could that be because German marques are regarded as better quality then British?

 

[flecc]

I'm sure they'll be Germany only as they are commissioned by the German Raleigh offshoot. Raleigh Great Britain have struck a partnership deal with Powabyke so are unlikely to tolerate an overlap.
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[flecc]

In support of 50cycles, the Kalkhoffs use Continental tyres, Chinese production always using their own makes like Kenda and Maxxis.

Therefore the Kalkhoffs are clearly made in Germany. The use of a 28" wheel size on a utility style bike is another clue to both design and manufacture, a typical Northern European feature common in Germany and the low countries, the Chinese using 26" and smaller normally except on outright sporting bikes where they sometimes use the 700c size.
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[JohnInStockie]

I have to say that bike looks gorgeous. It looks well made and well thoght out. I think it is a contender for best overall ebike on the market award.

On that note, why dont we on this forum (or maybe just Flecc who has forgotten more about ebikes than I'll ever know) create an award, the "Pedelecers Innovation Award for good design"

Now that would be hard to get!!!

 

[flecc]

That sounds a good idea John, but it would have to be democratic and not autocratically down to me.

One worry I'd have is that with so many these days enamoured of MTB styling and having not a clue on good bike design, the award could so easily be given to the worst designs. That would be an even bigger disaster than a BBC cat being given the name not voted for.
.

 

[coops]

One or two questions on the Agattu:

I read what you said on the suitability of Lithium flecc, but how much do you think deep discharges of the Li-Mn batteries (i.e. using them till they cut out) would affect their lifespan (or might that be accommodated by for the software/control so not a problem)? Do you think avoiding deep discharging, like for the Ezee Li-Mn, might be necessary to help prolong their useful life, or might this be managed for you by the bike's control so no need to be concerned about it (or does the well-managed power delivery system alleviate the problem anyway?!).

The other thing is, even though this bike has a high power setting for 17mph, could the top speed be 'tweaked' up (or down) by changing the number of teeth on the cogwheel on the hubgear, as for the Twist? Not essential I know, just wondering . Might the slightly lower power of the newer panasonic units limit the extra speed possible above 17mph, even in high power setting, do you think?

Stuart.

 

[mastanlem]

Question To 50 cycles

Just a thought. Is the 250 watt legal in this country. I thought it was 200 watt.

Also would a skirt guard be available.

Marina

 

[halfmedley]

Just a thought. Is the 250 watt legal in this country. I thought it was 200 watt.

I was under the impression that 250W was legal for Europe and 200W was British spec, but if it ever came to a court case then European law would have precedence. Though you'd have to get proper legal advice to be certain.

 

[Tim]

Just a thought. Is the 250 watt legal in this country. I thought it was 200 watt.

Also would a skirt guard be available.

Marina

Yes, the one's we have in right now are fitted with a skirtguard. 250W is perfectly legal in EU, and we're in the EU aren't we!

 

[flecc]

One or two questions on the Agattu:

I read what you said on the suitability of Lithium flecc, but how much do you think deep discharges of the Li-Mn batteries (i.e. using them till they cut out) would affect their lifespan (or might that be accommodated by for the software/control so not a problem)? Do you think avoiding deep discharging, like for the Ezee Li-Mn, might be necessary to help prolong their useful life, or might this be managed for you by the bike's control so no need to be concerned about it (or does the well-managed power delivery system alleviate the problem anyway?!).

The preference for minimum discharge is universal to Lithium batteries, but as you've mentioned, more gentle use and management alleviates the worst effects of discharge to a fair extent. The number of charges influences things as well, a weekday commuter is going to reach 500 charges in a couple of years anyway, so that could cap the life. The experience with a lower powered motor will always be very much better though.

The other thing is, even though this bike has a high power setting for 17mph, could the top speed be 'tweaked' up (or down) by changing the number of teeth on the cogwheel on the hubgear, as for the Twist? Not essential I know, just wondering . Might the slightly lower power of the newer panasonic units limit the extra speed possible above 17mph, even in high power setting, do you think?

Yes, no problem, those in flatter areas can just fit a smaller Shimano hub sprocket for higher speeds, those wanting to tow huge loads over mountains can fit a larger sprocket for lower top speed and hauling anything.

The sprocket can also be an SRAM one or an original Sturmey Archer designed one.
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[flecc]

Just a thought. Is the 250 watt legal in this country. I thought it was 200 watt.

Marina

The 200 watt UK law is still in force as well due to an administrative error, but it's likely to be cleared up by conforming with EU law only before too long. In this particular case, the 250 watt EU law would undoubtedly take precedence meanwhile if the issue were to go to judgment.
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[Leonardo]

Very interested in your feedback about the Kalkhoff: as I said some time ago, they are beginning to come in Italy as well (at a higher price than yours, but with the good collateral effect of bringing down the price of its direct competitor, the Biketech Flyer) but we have no experiences till now. Since the Kalkhoff uses the same Panasonic batteries of the Flyer, which we know quite well, I can say though that they behave extremely well: even after one year of hard use (i.e. bringing them to deep discharge quite often) they show very little loss of capacity: between almost nothing for the 8Ah battery and a <7% being the worst report we had on our forum for a old 7.2Ah battery (bought second hand).

 

[flecc]

Thanks Leonardo, that's very good news and underlines the way in which low powered motors give these batteries a much easier time. That small loss of capacity is exceptional and seems only to be approached by the very expensive BionX battery. The life limit is likely to be set by the number of charges for an every day commuter.

The Kalkhoff battery is shown by 50cycles as 10 Ah, a size I hadn't heard of before with these motors. Have you heard of them?
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[Leonardo]

Yes, the new Biketech Flyer models ("Premium", from 2007) have this battery, that is reported to give >25% more than the previous 8Ah. Batteries are exactly the same. I don't know about the Panasonic unit, because, even though the Italian supplier told me that it is the same as the Biketech Premium line, ho also told me that it is not completely silent (while the Flyer's one is really silent, nothing in common with the old Lafree), and that its three levels of assistance are 0.5 - 1 - 1.3, while those of the new (2007) Flyer are 0.5 - 1 - 1.5.

---
edit: by the way - these batteries are very expensive as well: I don't know now, but few months ago the price of the Flyer 10Ah battery was around 600 euro!

 

[flecc]

Thanks Leonardo, I expected batteries of that quality to be expensive and had already guessed at well over £300. Still, if they give the life, they can still end up cheaper. The high quality BionX one is also very expensive, I've seen 900 US dollars.

When Tim of 50cycles rode the Kalkhoff for 25 miles, he reported it as silent, and he is familiar with the Lafree, so it may be the same unit as in the Flyer. Hopefully the Kalkhoff will have the 1.5 high level assistance as it's also a new 2007 introduction and includes plenty of capacity, but even 1.3 will be a big improvement on the Lafree in the most hilly areas.
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[Fat Girl]

suddenly there are more ebikes for sale

It looks like there are suddenly more ebikes for sale - is it anything to do with all this drooling over the kalkhoff?

 

[coops]

Thanks flecc & Leonardo for the very useful information - its good to know the batteries last well, despite the 'strange' construction (7 series & 2 parallel of 3.72V 4Ah to make 26v 8Ah) you described previously, especially if extra batteries are that pricey! .

Will 50cycles supply spare/replacement batteries?

I'd also missed that the battery and bike have a 2 year warranty, which is reassuring in principle.

Its also good for sharing of information that we may soon have the same kalkhoff/flyer panasonic 'premium' type bikes available in the UK and Italy .

I'm already liking the German 'perfectionist' and efficient approach, having gathered from the agattu pedelec page that it has a 41 tooth front chainwheel and 21 rear sprocket as standard, giving a 244% standard gear range of 34.5" - 84.5" (it is the shimano nexus inter-7, isn't it? (2 hubs are listed on that page, but they have the same gearing). Also shimano says the hub can take 16-23 teeth sprocket, so it seems some scope for gearing down, but more for gearing up .

Stuart.