News: 50Cycles launch the Kalkhoff Agattu Pedelec

[flecc]

To John:

There's no limiter as such, just Panasonic's normal software control of power applied according to the rider's need. Instead of that being biased just for standard and low settings, there's also a higher allowance level for that high power mode. It's not just an uncontrolled power release though, software management still in place. Panasonic's system is very advanced. For example, Eco mode doesn't just cut power across the board, it merely limits the power a bit more than usual when under high loading such as hill climbing, since that is when motors are at their most wasteful of energy.

To Chris:

Pleased to hear that Chris, that's quite a fleet that you've gathered quickly! You'll have many jealous of you.

To Urban Puma:

This won't replace the Sprint which will still be eZee's bike in this sector. That hub motor bike also has it's place, the simplicity of a hub motor being all that's necessary for areas not blighted by the steepest hills. It's just good to have both so that everyone can be suited in all circumstances, something that has been lacking for a year or so now.
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[Fat Girl]

To John:

This won't replace the Sprint which will still be eZee's bike in this sector. That hub motor bike also has it's place, the simplicity of a hub motor being all that's necessary for areas not blighted by the steepest hills. It's just good to have both so that everyone can be suited in all circumstances, something that has been lacking for a year or so now.
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Flecc, how do you think this compares to the ezee forte? after reading these reports, i'm in danger of post cognitive dissonance.
PS. finally received my second charger today.

 

[flecc]

I'm glad you have the other charger at last, you'll be able to conveniently keep the charge up all time now.

The Kalkhoff is very different from the Forte which is very much a performance bike, something none of the Panasonic powered bikes could ever be. The real advantage of the Panasonic drive through gears system is that almost anything can be climbed, but not breaking any records in doing it. It uses a moderate amount of power and by gearing that power down to suit a demand, any climb is possible. It's a bit like the principle used in a large road roller weighing several tons which might only have a tiny engine of around 7 hp. Gearing it very low means the power is enough, but also means low speeds only.

The Forte uses much more power (over 70% more) and is therefore much faster on all the things it's capable of. For example, Tim tried the Kalkhoff and averaged 14 mph, but in your area I'd expect that to be a bit slower at about 12/13 mph average, given your hills. The Forte can easily average 16 mph or more as A to B found with it on test, and if derestricted for off road use, can average 18/19 mph, even a fairly hilly area.

One thing the Panasonic powered bikes are much better with though is when used unpowered, when they are more pleasant to cycle than any other e-bike, and when the battery is taken out, they are almost indistinguishable from any good bike only. That will be particularly true of the very light Kalkhoff.
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[coops]

I like the look of this bike!

I'd seen mention of the kalkhoff bikes recently, by Leonardo & flecc, but to be honest I didn't pay much attention because I was contemplating a short-range, more manouevrable 26" wheel bike for getting to local off-road tracks, where I'd pedal more than use the motor.

However, though it might be not the usual order now I've got my "sports" bike Torq, I'm thinking this would make an excellent flexible touring/utility bike (especially on mountain roads), wouldn't it flecc? A lightweight starting weight too? I'd like to try some touring, but the Torq's just not quite... inclined that way! Wonder how much for a 2nd battery, only 2.2kg too!

Still a bit confused by the "mode" & "power" settings (although I'd be pleased to have that level of flexibility of choice) and couldn't find info on the kalkhoff site either: the image you referred to earlier showing a power & mode 'display', it looks to me as if the 'power' part is a battery power meter (judging from the F for 'full', half-empty battery symbol at what is presumably just that, and the E for 'empty') while the lower 'mode' display indicates 3 'power' modes of economy, standard and high...? (a bit confusing!) As Tim said, and as you gave a practical description of. Do you think thats correct? - otherwise I couldn't quite understand, for example, high-power mode in an eco setting...?

Would waterproofness also be up to same level as the Twist i.e. very good, do you think? Have you heard how well other bikes using the same the drive unit have withstood water, for instance?

I'm also keen to hear and maybe try out how well the pedelec software operates - I can't say I'm that keen on pedalling slower to get more motor assistance, though logically I suppose it works and will be less of an issue for touring I guess... still, hard to let go of the motor-assist control you get with a throttle!

I'll dream & think on for now...

P.S. I guess the men's model would look somewhat like this one?

P.P.S. I also very much like the idea of an ebike for touring/utility which rides as freely as a normal bike when unassisted by the motor, and has little weight penalty too (especially without the battery)!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

It certainly makes sense coupled with a Torq Stuart, giving two contrasting bikes. You mention going to off road meetings, but in fact this sort of bike is much better for use on rough cycle paths and the like than hub-motor bikes, since the motor/battery unit is suspended amidships and benefits from the sprung forks.

You may be right on that bike meter, but since in usual Panasonic fashion the 5 LED ladder meter is on the battery, I'm not so sure. It would be odd and confusing to have the battery shown with five levels on the battery and three on the bars. I'll know when I see and try it, but there are definitely three power levels, Eco and Standard corresponding with the Gazelle and former Lafree, plus a High power setting. Hence the 17 mph mentioned, rather than the legal 15.5 mph which these units usually accurately cut at, due to the multi-magnet speed sensing shown at the yellow arrow on this earlier unit.

The High power position is also on some of the higher price Bike-Tech models using the same power unit, usually appearing at around the £2000 level for that mode.
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[coops]

Yes, it would suit rough cycle paths better (sorry I wasn't clear - I meant getting to and riding on off-road tracks, but with the emphasis on power assist on road more than off-road ) - in terms of both motor position and ride comfort too - and that much would bode well for the occasional "offroad" excursion, its just the 28" wheels (which the kalkhoff has) put me off considering it for that as a main use as I find them more unwieldy and lacking manoueuvreability/nippiness on winding tracks compared to the 26" wheels on my MTB - although how much of that is also due to the extra weight of the Torq I'm not sure. Also if I bought a kalkhoff I wouldn't want it to get too muddy though a few tries at touring might change that!

I'm thinking that if I improve my fitness a bit I'll just try to use my MTB on local tracks, and any new ebike I might consider would then be mainly for possible touring/utility use.

I'd overlooked the sprung forks - do you think that would be an issue for a touring bike and would you look to change them, or use some other workaround flecc? I personally don't think I'd want them, especially on-road: it seems from Frank's test-ride that the Wisper 905se has front sus forks that also lock, which sounds useful so long as there's no other compromise involved? What do you think?

I'll look forward to hearing your opinions & a fuller impression if you do get to try it out - might you be a bit tempted too eh, flecc?

It does seem very good value compared to the extra premium you'd pay on the mid/top range Biketecs for the high power mode speed 'boost'.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Like you I don't like suspension forks Stuart, but they'd be useful offroad, and I'd be prepared to put up with them on road on an e-bike, though definitely not an ordinary bike ever. These might be lockable though. An interesting point is that the three riders who set that distance record used rigid forks, possibly an earlier model since the carrier was different too. Wonder if anyone else noticed that.

More than just tempted, I would buy one for longer country leisure rides if I had somewhere to put it, but I just sold the twist for no other reason than wanting the space, so buying the Kalkhoff to add to the fleet isn't an option.

Those 28" wheels would turn slowly offroad, but they also be better at smoothing the bumps, so one offsets the other to some extent.

P.S. I didn't answer the waterproofing question. These units are unconditionally waterproof, silicone rubber sealed crankcase halves and neoprene sealing rings on the shafts and bearings. Cables exit all at one point though a multi hole grommet, each hole a tight fit on the cable outer. The grommet has multiple sealing ribs on it's outer insert surface. The chances of water getting in are about the same as me winning the lottery jackpot two weeks running.
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[coops]

I didn't notice those forks, though for riding on a track I'd be surprised if they used anything else! Although they do say "using a standard kalkhoff ebike", the Kalkhoff Pro Connect Pedelec 8Gear Shimano Nexus does appear to have have rigid front forks, and could still be described as a standard ebike... so maybe they used that model for the test?

Thanks for the info on the sus forks, flecc, they might be useful then after all .

As for those figures... 100 miles per 260Wh charge on a flat track at 20km/h (about 12mph) and presumably in eco-mode, equates to more like 32 miles or so at 15mph on the flat for the same battery & rider input (if my figures are correct) which is still impressive for the low battery weight . High power mode would reduce the range somewhat too, I'd expect, unless rider input is proportionately higher.

I'm not sure where I'd keep all my bikes either if I bought another one flecc I'll give some more thought to the pro's and cons of this bike vs others available, but at first glance it certainly seems to tick many of the right boxes for long rides, possibly with heavier touring loads .

Stuart.

 

[Django]

Hi Flecc/Coops,

If either of you really wants to buy one but are worried about space, you are very welcome to keep it in my garage.

Cheers,

Django

PS: Good price as well. £1321 (equivalent) is the cheapest I could find in Germany.

 

[halfmedley]

An interesting point is that the three riders who set that distance record used rigid forks, possibly an earlier model since the carrier was different too.

Also interesting to note that they seemingly used the step-thru model. Would that provide any performance advantages over a 'diamant' (kalkhoff-speak for 'gents' frame) frame, or are these latter just harder to procure? I haven't been able to find a picture of a cross-bar version anywhere. However I must say I'm starting to favour the convenience of a step-thru for around town!

 

[Miles]

Also interesting to note that they seemingly used the step-thru model. Would that provide any performance advantages over a 'diamant' (kalkhoff-speak for 'gents' frame) frame, or are these latter just harder to procure?

The whole exercise seems pretty meaninless, anyway... You could set up a bike to go 500 miles in pedelec mode - so what?

 

[halfmedley]

Think I've just found the answer to my own question on 50cycles website: the 'gents' version isn't available until 2008. Gives me some time to start saving!

 

[flecc]

I'm interested to see what form the crossbar has, straight or curved. Curved is better for absorbing shocks but pointless when there's front suspension.

Although I also like step through convenience, they are often a bit "bendy", the Twist living up to it's name in this respect, with the gents version much stiffer. The Kalkhoff frame looks a stiffer assembly though, so is probably fine in both versions.

I didn't take much notice of that range record, any e-bike can do huge mileages on the flat or a smooth cycle race track when ridden by strong riders, but it's what customers get in real world conditions that counts. I've no doubt this bike will have a good range though, the slightly greedier earlier motor giving me a 20 mile range from 6.5 Ah on a near 23 kilo bike. The Kalkhoff weighs 2 kilos less and has a 10 Ah battery, so I'd expect at least 30 miles in my very hilly area, and think with the motor improvements it could be rather more.
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[halfmedley]

Actually, I think I may have been talking 'diamant' rubbish earlier (no surprise there) - it seems that unassisted Agattus (Agatti?) come in three frame styles: 1) Herren - Trekking (with a straight cross-bar); 2) Damen - Trapez (with a lowered crossbar) and 3) Wave (the step-thru frame as seen on the electrified version). Perhaps the 'gents' electric will have the straight crossbar 'trekking' frame?

 

[musicbooks]

I think I may have tracked down the gents version.. looks even more impressive.. paste link below

Kalkhoff "Pro Connect Pedelec" 8G Nexus (20,8 KG; bis 80 km) : Fahrrad Speicher.de Mountainbike, Fahrrad, Corratec kostenloser Fahrradversand

musicbooks

 

[flecc]

Nice looking indeed, but rigid fork and the different carrier again. This is the one that set the distance record, but I doubt that is what 50cycles will bring in, it will probably be the sprung one again, but in gents diamond frame.
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[Bikerbob]

Think I've just found the answer to my own question on 50cycles website: the 'gents' version isn't available until 2008. Gives me some time to start saving!

'Until 2008' gives them a pretty large margin. If it was Giant I'd suspect it meant late December 2008, but I'm sure 50cycles will do a lot better than that!

 

[coops]

You could set up a bike to go 500 miles in pedelec mode

Do you mean by pedal assist at, say, 10mph or less (with that 260Wh battery), or by some other means?

Stuart.

 

[Miles]

Do you mean by pedal assist at, say, 10mph or less (with that 260Wh battery), or by some other means?
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"Some other means"

 

[coops]

intriguing, Miles! Do I detect some diabolically devious handiwork going on? Give us a clue - 500miles at what sort of average speed, say? - and what sort of average rider input?