New to forum, advice gratefully received!

[Wisper Bikes]

Battery prices

Hi

Re Flecc's comment

"The best quality Li-ion prices are like that. The BionX 36 volt one is £450, the Panasonic 26 volt one £305. I don't know about those Synergie ones, but doubt they can be the same quality. However, they aren't very high powered bikes, and low power motors don't work batteries as hard."

I can confirm that Li-ion battery prices can vary massively and the factory price of a high power battery is extremely high. The retail price of £450 for a good, high amp 36v Li Po is about right but very off putting!

I have taken the view however that by the time our high powered batteries need to be replaced the price will have come down considerably. I have priced our 36v 14a Li Po at £299.00, which I believe will be about the right price in a couple of years.

Best regards David

 

[flecc]

Good pricing David, and I'm sure prices for quality will come down with time as they do for most electrical stuff.

Over the last few years the only long lasting Li-ion performers have been the expensive ones though, BionX, Panasonic etc., the others losing capacity fast, sometimes meteorically! Of course 33% capacity loss per annum was predicted by the industry at first, so they did tell us.

Things are improving quite rapidly now though, and hopefully it will not be long before a good life will be got from all of them.
.

 

[alsmith]

No, it's experience. I'm not sure why you say the bikes haven't been around long enough. Lithium ion batteries have been on a few bikes for years, and a bike that I bought July 2006 had both Li-ion batteries that I got with it dud before Christmas. One replacement on warranty lasted almost six months again, so three in a row is good enough experience. Many of our members have had similar experience, and that's why I advise the best batteries. Cheap and Li-ion don't go together, though as said, they can limp along with low powered motors.

Synergie have received quite a lot of praise for their service, but a few ex owners have referred to the bikes as junk, so opinions vary on them. However, I don't remember anyone ever describing them as powerful, quite the opposite at times, so not too much faith should be put in a paper peak power figure. Two of their models at an e-bike show last year I'd describe as medium power at best, with only the 18 kilo folder being described by some as going really well.
.
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They gave me the peak figure as 430W which seems more than adequate from the other things I'd read. The point about Lithium batteries possibly was not detailed enough. I meant the specific packs for specific bikes- many of these ones are newer bikes, so a newer battery pack and therefore no specific experience about them- time will give that. I am not doubting that there are many experiences for this type of battery for other bikes, which will have other makes/designs used. The broader criticism is like saying that only expensive petrol lawnmowers are any good because a few people have had problems with cheaper ones. A new cheaper make/model has recently been released so it must be no good too.

The problem with descriptions such as junk is that I have not seen any direct comment from such people- and I'm sure you are well aware of the dangers associated with heresay, and human nature often exagerates things as stories are passed on. I think I earlier said that one of my criticisms of ebays feedback system is that it is made when you have a shiny new toy, not 3, 6 or 12 months later when a more considered opinion would be given. The description of junk needs to be put in context- what were they expecting for the money- they are inexpensive compared to many other models- perhaps the problem is that they had too high expectations, or really should have spent £1200 to meet their needs? What was junk in their opinion? We probably all know people who have had unrealistic expectations for things- wheter it be bikes, a car, food, or commonly a friend or partner. I'd love to know more.

However, all of your thoughts and comments are appreciated and will be considered when I make the decision. How much are bus passes?

 

[alsmith]

The eBay seller you mentioned seems unaware of, or ignores, the UK's Sale of Goods Act. They offer what is actually an inadequate warranty with unfavourable (and illegal) terms, with the buyer supposedly paying for return of defective items, an inadequate length of warranty and incorrect parts and labour elements. I checked this with Trading Standards. Effectively, as a business trading via eBay, they are bound by the sales laws of the UK, which are designed to protect buyers, but their warranty flouts them.... when I asked them (twice) about this, they simply did not respond to my e-mails. Needless to say, I didn't buy a bike from them.

They are far from being alone in using such terms, and it is not just ebay sellers. I wonder if acceping this term modifies the law on the contract, and what there reaction would be to excuding it as a term as a condition of an order.
It will be an attempt at them to reduce costs, and final price to the buyer. If they make such provision it would go onto the price- everyone would pay more. How many buyers would choose that, or a cheaper bike?

With regard to wayrranty there is always the small claims court- a lot easier process for small claims than it used to be. They probably wouldn't bother to offer a defence.

If you asked Trading Standards they wouldnt bother unless the seller is in their area- did you contact Edinburgh one which is possibly closest? They would probably have more interest.

 

[alsmith]

Hi

Re Flecc's comment

"The best quality Li-ion prices are like that. The BionX 36 volt one is £450, the Panasonic 26 volt one £305. I don't know about those Synergie ones, but doubt they can be the same quality. However, they aren't very high powered bikes, and low power motors don't work batteries as hard."

I can confirm that Li-ion battery prices can vary massively and the factory price of a high power battery is extremely high. The retail price of £450 for a good, high amp 36v Li Po is about right but very off putting!

I have taken the view however that by the time our high powered batteries need to be replaced the price will have come down considerably. I have priced our 36v 14a Li Po at £299.00, which I believe will be about the right price in a couple of years.

Best regards David

That battery price is the same as some bike prices with all the bits on so it must be very hard for you to justify as a retailer. The lady with the Giant bike was very much unhappy at the cost of replacement after just a year and having been told a much lower replacement price at the time of purchase of the bike.
Which bikes take the battery you have described? And what is the bike price? I find it hard to justify some of the battery prices at 50% of the price of a new bike. Has anyone done an exercise to price a bike at spare part prices to compare to a bike? I'd bet is going to be a little more expensive! (I'm asking for a couple of reasons, one is I'll consider a purchase- I like your openess).

I might be struggling to understand and learn, I just pity all of those people who bought a bike and never thought to ask about battery prices. And because ebay sellers, and some makes can disappear means I want a spare at the time of buying the bike, as well as occaisional extra range).

Still (!) learning......

 

[Ian]

The problem with descriptions such as junk is that I have not seen any direct comment from such people- and I'm sure you are well aware of the dangers associated with heresay, and human nature often exagerates things as stories are passed on.

I had one of their previous models and it was not a good experience. The bike had numerous design flaws and was built from the cheapest parts available, it was unreliable in the extreme and after 5 months use was junk, quite literally. The only reason I tolerated it for that long was because I had the technical ability to keep repairing and modifying it. At the time I was a member of an internet forum specifically for owners of that brand and was able to tell that my experience was actually one of the best, those without technical skills having no chance of a dependable bike.
The stories of woe posted on that Forum were not heresay, they were genuine problems being experienced by ordinary people.

 

[flecc]

The broader criticism is like saying that only expensive petrol lawnmowers are any good because a few people have had problems with cheaper ones. A new cheaper make/model has recently been released so it must be no good too.

I really don't need this sort of lecturing comment. I'm going to leave the thread now alsmith, since it seems that whatever is said you want to refute it, not just from me each time I post, but in an unjustified criticism of a manufacturer's good battery price. All very much at odds with the thread title about advice gratefully received.

Either you are learning as you say or you feel you know best. It's impossible for me to determine which at present.

This of course is the second occasion when I've found the responses inappropriate: Previous
.

 

[alsmith]

I really don't need this sort of lecturing comment. I'm going to leave the thread now alsmith, since it seems that whatever is said you want to refute it, not just from me each time I post, but in an unjustified criticism of a manufacturer's good battery price. All very much at odds with the thread title about advice gratefully received.

Either you are learning as you say or you feel you know best. It's impossible for me to determine which at present.

This of course is the second occasion when I've found the responses inappropriate: Previous
.

It is not my intention to upset or insult you, but to learn. Comments made without direct experience could/should be open to questioning, personal experience like the last post is first hand and is one persons experience. I am not saying your interpretion is incorrect, but as in a court direct experience is accepted more clearly than heresay/third party evidence- if it is allowed at all. I know this is not a court but the general principle is true for most things, .

I anm sorry if you feel insulted or upset, that was not my intention. I thank you for all of your previous input, I do appreciate it. If you no longer want to communicate with me that is fine, but please leave knowing I do value the help you have given, and really do thank you. Please take care, you go with my best wishes and grateful thanks.

 

[alsmith]

I had one of their previous models and it was not a good experience. The bike had numerous design flaws and was built from the cheapest parts available, it was unreliable in the extreme and after 5 months use was junk, quite literally. The only reason I tolerated it for that long was because I had the technical ability to keep repairing and modifying it. At the time I was a member of an internet forum specifically for owners of that brand and was able to tell that my experience was actually one of the best, those without technical skills having no chance of a dependable bike.
The stories of woe posted on that Forum were not heresay, they were genuine problems being experienced by ordinary people.

Thank you for this link. I had not found this before, and I have not seen it pointed to before.
This is exactly what I was saying is wrong with the ebay feedback system, this link shows feedback being given many months after purchase when the excitement of a new purchase hase diminished. I also appreciate the information you have given from personal experience- third party comments and chinese whispers can be unreliable and subject to change during transmission through several stages.

Many thanks for this very helpful information.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Battery prices

Hi Again Al

The bike I am referring to is the Wisper 905se, and they are due to be in the UK in April.

If you send me your email address I will post you a 10 page (or so) document that will tell you about the cells we use.

Your observation "That battery price is the same as some bike prices with all the bits on" is absolutely spot on. I can buy a complete Li Ion e-bike for less than I pay for our battery. I think that the fact that I and several other manufacturers are buying these hi tech models speaks volumes. Li Ion batteries have had teething problems since their launch, but it is generally agreed that Lithium currently is the way to move forward. The new generation Lithium batteries have overcome these initial problems but do cost a fortune, because we are still paying for the R and D in the price.

The new reliable Lithium batteries will come down in price over the next couple of years but until such time, if you want the best you have to pay for it!

Best regards David

 

[flecc]

Thank you for the explanation alsmith. Have a look at this quote and the text following and you'll understand the problem:

I am not saying your interpretion is incorrect, but as in a court direct experience is accepted more clearly than heresay/third party evidence- if it is allowed at all. I know this is not a court but the general principle is true for most things, .

If when you come into a forum such as this you ask for advice but then publicly cast doubt on the advice given, the advisor is left with two options. Ignore what is said and give the impression to all others that perhaps he/she doesn't know what they are talking about, or give a lengthy explanation of the experience that lay behind the advice.

But I don't come into the forum to waste time doing that, I come in here to give advice to those who need it. If you have doubts about the advice I've given, by all means have them, but expressing them repeatedly to obviously experienced advisers in a mature forum like this is hardly appropriate since the content of the above quote is blindingly obvious to such people. You'll know the saying "teaching granny to suck eggs" no doubt. Of course I appreciate a defined objection to something I've posted when it's thought I've made an error of fact.

On batteries, I objected to your comment that the manufacturer contributing "must find it hard to justify the price", since you clearly do not have the knowledge of the subject to say that. As I posted in my following comment to David, the price is good, a comment you clearly gave no credence to.
.

 

[alsmith]

Thank you for the explanation alsmith. Have a look at this quote and the text following and you'll understand the problem:



If when you come into a forum such as this you ask for advice but then publicly cast doubt on the advice given, the advisor is left with two options. Ignore what is said and give the impression to all others that perhaps he/she doesn't know what they are talking about, or give a lengthy explanation of the experience that lay behind the advice.

But I don't come into the forum to waste time doing that, I come in here to give advice to those who need it. If you have doubts about the advice I've given, by all means have them, but expressing them repeatedly to obviously experienced advisers in a mature forum like this is hardly appropriate since the content of the above quote is blindingly obvious to such people. You'll know the saying "teaching granny to suck eggs" no doubt. Of course I appreciate a defined objection to something I've posted when it's thought I've made an error of fact.

On batteries, I objected to your comment that the manufacturer contributing "must find it hard to justify the price", since you clearly do not have the knowledge of the subject to say that. As I posted in my following comment to David, the price is good, a comment you clearly gave no credence to.
.

Thanks for the comments. The price of the batteries are such a huge proportion of the cost of the bike. Most people will think that is hard to justify.

Thanks for all of your prior help.

 

[flecc]

The price of the batteries are such a huge proportion of the cost of the bike. Most people will think that is hard to justify.

But only because they haven't understood that the batteries in question are new technology, incorporating years of substantial R & D costs, offset by relatively small sales of electric bike.

Another factor is that the R & D has been continuously increasing and is now at it's highest level ever. Added to that are the costs of substantial recalls and free replacements, and even compensation for accidents, such has been the troubled history of these batteries. The technology has substantial theoretical advantages, but the realisation of those has been ever more expensive.

The simple way to avoid those total costs is to use the oldest technology, lead-acid, cheap to produce, high recycling recoverability and no development costs so very cheap, but the disadvantages are considerable, amongst them very high weight and the inability to issue more than about half the current content at high discharge rates.

Cheap Li-ions are yesterday's technology, produced on a "me too" basis using others prior research and what we refer to as Chinese parts bin stuff. As you can infer from the above, yesterday's Li-ions are not very desirable, though as I've noted before, in lower power applications they can survive moderately well.
.

 

[frank9755]

Thanks for the comments. The price of the batteries are such a huge proportion of the cost of the bike. Most people will think that is hard to justify.

Sorry Al but I think you've got a bit confused here!

David is telling us a fact about what it costs him to buy the very latest high quality, high capacity, light, and efficient battery from one of the world's leading suppliers, relative to what it costs him to buy the other components that go to make up a Wisper bike. Either you believe him, and I do because it is consistent with what I understand from other sources, or you don't. If you don't, I think you might want to put forward some evidence to justify the accusation that what David says (and which Flecc with his large amount of experience and me with my moderate amount, agree with) is not true!

Frank

 

[tgame]

But only because they haven't understood that the batteries in question are new technology, incorporating years of substantial R & D costs, offset by relatively small sales of electric bike.

Another factor is that the R & D has been continuously increasing and is now at it's highest level ever. Added to that are the costs of substantial recalls and free replacements, and even compensation for accidents, such has been the troubled history of these batteries. The technology has substantial theoretical advantages, but the realisation of those has been ever more expensive.

I have to say that I don't agree with you if you intend to suggest that all this is perfectly reasonable, Flecc. To me it's damned silly. The capital involved in R & D is of course risk capital and has to be. The rewards to be hoped for are large sales of the final product. The sort of enormously disproportionate prices that we are currently seeing will simply put people off the idea of ebiking for ever. Simplistic cash flow accounting is silly in this context.

I imagine someone meeting the idea of an ebike for the first time thinking "Now that's a good idea," and reading all the blurb about almost nil costs per mile of recharging, going on excitedly to look up details of bike prices - and getting a shock on discovering that they are pretty high. "Still" he might think "it might be worth the cost I suppose," and he goes into it further to get another shock when he discovers that the battery will likely need replacing in a couple of years or so. "But the battery will only cost £20 or so," one imagines him thinking, and continuing his exploration. Then he discovers the actual replacement battery will cost around £300! One can almost hear his snort of derision, aimed at himself for having been taken for a ride, and sense him leaving the subject of ebikes for ever and ever amen!

Of course all this is entirely theoretical as nothing we can say will alter the way that Panasonic etc, conduct their business, but at least we can go through the motions of pointing out that it's self defeating and in fact damned silly!

 

[Jeremy]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Tony. To get off the ground, electric technology needs to be made ultra-user-friendly and people need to be given confidence in something that is new and different.

I think Toyota recognised this when they introduced the Prius. They guessed people would worry about the battery, it's reliability and the cost of replacement. The answer they hit upon was to develop a very reliable NiMH battery (actually it was Matsushita (a.k.a Panasonic) working with Toyota), test it a great deal and then provide it with an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty.

The fact that a new replacement battery is around £3,000 is far less important, as for the majority of customers the thing will always be covered by the warranty. By the time the car gets to be 8 years old, the cost-effective way of replacing the odd defective battery is to buy one second-hand, from a vehicle that's been written off.

I doubt that there are many ebike manufacturers who would be so rash as to offer such a warranty!

Jeremy

 

[frank9755]

Tony,

It's a market and £300 is the price! Markets may be dumb but they are not silly! Markets in fact represent the accumulated wisdom and folly of all those who take part in them. If we weren't prepared to pay the price we wouldn't have bought the product.

You could say think razor and blades or inkjet printer and cartridges or mobile phone and contract (ie where consumables or service contract price subsidises hardware platform), but I don't even think it is like that. When I look at the battery of my bike and see something not much bigger than a brick and no heavier, but which can transport me for 30-odd miles, up hills, and do it not once but a few hundred times over, I do not think £300 is silly at all.

Bear in mind that the rechargeable batteries for 4 bike lights cost about £20 - I think I would be silly if I expected to get that amount of transport for the same price as the batteries for a few glorified torches!

 

[tgame]

Tony,

It's a market and £300 is the price! Markets may be dumb but they are not silly!

I note your opinion, Frank. For myself I frequently find them very silly indeed!

 

[flecc]

And I also disagree with both Tony and Jeremy on this issue.

E-bikes sales are not going to have the potential that car sales can have, and the notion of investing to realise a far larger market simply isn't going to work. The bike manufacturers are intelligent enough to know that people worldwide want cars, not bikes, and that there is only a rather small and specialised market for the e-bikes, reducing continuously as China becomes more prosperous and car ownership more common. Small specialised markets pay high prices in every field, facts of production and marketing.

You're also only considering bike batteries and are mixing up battery and bike manufacturers. The large scale lithium research and the associated costs are in lithium batteries for everything including transport, not specific to bikes, but the major costs which have continued for around twenty years now have to be covered by what battery manufacturers actually do sell, and there aren't many electric cars around yet. Given their very small battery purchasing power, the e-bike manufacturers aren't in a position to influence battery manufacturers marketing policy or prices.

Like Frank, I feel the prices are perfectly reasonable when all factors are considered.

It's not battery prices which prevent anyone riding e-bikes since there are cheap ones available. It's British weather, road conditions and the desire to drive cars, and the availability of dirt cheap high tech batteries won't alter that one iota.
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[tgame]

It's not battery prices which prevent anyone riding e-bikes since there are cheap ones available. It's British weather, road conditions and the desire to drive cars, and the availability of dirt cheap high tech batteries won't alter that one iota.
.

It's pleasant to feel able to disagree while respecting one's companions.

I query your last assertion, Flecc. What makes you so sure of this? I have had an ebike for a month - and have already heard three people say that the ones with small batteries cost too much, and the ones with big batteries look clumsy. All right - I may have lead them a little!!

I also seem to meet lots of people who are very minded indeed to get away from car driving. It's perfectly possible (if not likely!) that cars historically may prove a passing blip.

Incidentally more and more and more people are riding horses in Suffolk! Ten years ago that certainly could not have been foreseen.