New Name for Forum

[HelenJ]

I’d like to respond to some posts on this thread:

Flud “[This] Forum complicit in lawsuit” and “I could not care less about folk breaking laws. Its the advertising of it on here which will do the damage..”

As Flecc pointed out, we can't be “complicit with any liability in something that is legal. There is no law preventing the sale of e-bikes or dongles that are not legal to use in any public area”.

Juicy- “I believe should be more guarded about the promotion of dangerous bikes.”

We don’t allow the promotion of bikes that are clearly non-EAPC compliant on advertising on Pedelecs (e.g banners, or bikes listed in the bike directory). We do allow free speech on the forum since we do not think censorship is appropriate on an open forum.

Although sales of over-speed and over-powered electric bikes are legal (they are governed by their use on UK roads) we drew a line in the sand some time (years) ago by not allowing advertising banners to promote these on the Pedelecs site, even when advertisers’ broader businesses sold such models (we have in the past refused to host banners that promoted 500w bikes for example).

We are not a regulatory body we are an information site, with a forum, news and guides.

Free speech by individuals who’ve purchased electric bikes and are participating in the forum - which as part of the internet is global - is not something we feel is right to censor and as has been pointed out we do employ a light touch moderation wise on the forum, because in previous debates that was what was asked for by members.

Flud, you may have a point that threads opening on high powered e-bikes in the Electric Bicycles category should be moved more consistently to S Peds & Overseas, but threads starting on a different footing can also move into that territory, so it’s not always that clear cut. We will endeavour to move more posts that we see clearly starting out on that territory – and if you see any we’ve missed then please do report it to bring it to our attention (as other helpful members do on other matters.) Although ‘private land’ was clearly in the description of that category we’ve renamed the category title too. For those unable to see our law page on the main navigation there is also now a link to that page at the top of that forum category.

We do not feel that members of the public talking about using their own high powered bikes on the forum constitutes supporting or promoting or even advertising them. One trade member did openly use his forum account to promote dongles and Russ asked him to stop that.

Morphix – “I'm shocked at how far this site and forum has moved since a little over a year from ago. This forum isn't the sensible and friendly place it once was, sadly.” I personally don’t think the tone has changed, like all forums it goes through cycles depending on what’s being discussed, who’s participating and has a particular angle. For the most part most members are still supportive and happy to share their knowledge and experience in a positive way.

KTM in response to Flud's "Why don't moderators realise all this" [I.e. us at Pedelecs] : “They are only interested in the advertising, and wouldn't even promote anything that is anti the firms who are benefiting from this.Its short sighted, selfish, irresponsible etc etc. We however stopped advertising, so they lost our £ because of it.” (http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/new-nane-for-forum.24040/page-4#post-3034)

You are of course entitled to your opinion Col. As explained above our ratecard states that we accept only advertising where advertisers state that their bikes are 250w max output/15.5mph and we choose not to accept banners featuring bikes that are clearly non-EAPC. There is no onus on us to do this. The site is divided into two separate areas, the front end of Pedelecs is all about the news and guides, including our guide to electric bike law and was designed to offer information to those new to the world of electric bikes.

The forum is a mix of newcomers, veterans and trade members. We encourage all and only charge £29 month (same price for many years now) for traders to both share their knowledge and sell their products if relevant to the OP in ‘which e-bike should I buy’. So this is priced to encourage both small and larger companies to join in for the benefit of all.

The forum software has enabled us to tag the word ‘dongle’ and link it through to the electric bike law page, so while we haven’t interfered with free speech, there is explanation on our law guide page.

We try to present the facts (and I’ve spent a fair chunk of time trying to get answers out of Dft and VCA for example, in order to offer clarity on our guides for those that want it) with the free speech as clearly as we can on different parts of the site. To say we “wouldn't even promote anything that is anti the firms who are benefiting from this” is clearly not true when our law page states that e-bikes are governed by road usage, that dongles and de-restriction switches aren’t compliant. And in the same way we don’t censor those talking about using their own high power bikes we haven’t stopped you campaigning for your point of view either.

To all - we won’t always get it right and are always open to suggestions.

 

[Paul smith]

May I suggest you all stop bitching about petty nonsense that no cares about...go for a peddle..blow them cobwebs off...

 

[rippedupno1]

I see your point... we definitely do not want to alienate or do finger waving at non-legal e-bike owners on this forum. That's not the intention and I think Flud agrees there? Like flecc said, we're not trying to police the forum or create divisions and friction with people.

The best answer to your question of where you can get advice on your off-roader bikes, would be if you had a dedicated category I think, what do you reckon?

Surely that is better all around, because you'd have more people focused there and knowledgeable about higher-powered e-bike building and kits and motors are available, and be able to freely discuss that and their performance...and since there's a lot of safety issues to consider, much more than a regular 250W motor conversion, I think that's quite helpful and important to have that "knowledge base" concentrated into one area rather than just merged into the general e-bikes discussion. As a legal precaution, it might be wise to make that category invite-only perhaps? Given you're probably going to be discussing doing things illegal and maybe posting videos of illegal bikes on public roads which could have legal consequences? Invite-only would be simple.. the forum category is locked to outsiders..and you need to apply to join it, one of the older regulars into off-road could act as moderator and approve new people asking to join?

I'm sure this kind of approach, or something approaching it, would help tremendously with the ongoing problems and tensions we have been seeing emerge...with a clear division and massive difference of opinion between those who do not like seeing discussions on off-road bikes being used illegally in the general forum, and those who don't have a problem with that.

If the two categories are separate there will be no clashes or cross-overs between legal and illegal road use. It will never be an issue. People who are opposed to off-road bikes being on roads, can just stay well away from that category (and will even get told off if they go there and start critical threads!)

And likewise, the general e-bikes category, could have a sticky post at the top saying discussion is limited to road-legal bikes and 250W kits...if you want to discuss high-power e-bike kits, go to the off-road category here.

I would suggest a "light moderation" approach like we have at present.. simple guidelines on how to post what where on the legal v off-road and if anyone crosses over, they're just politely reminded it's strayed off-topic and in the wrong category.

Does anyone see any problem with this? Maybe we can do a vote and put it to the site owner and forum moderator Russ?

I certainly have no problem at all with having a separate section for illegal bikes and would happily comply with any / all regulations about posting in it.
As long as i still have the ability to ask questions / seek advice on my bikes iam a happy bunny.
Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[trex]

Is it me? or is this forum turning into a ego trip/ argument forum. flud has only been on this forum a very short time and it's degenerated into a critical exchange of boring ideas, the best way to treat flud et al is just to ignore their posts completely , if nodody responds to whatever they post,then they will get the message, and we can rescue this site and return it to the informative, friendly site i joined.
Genuine ebike riders like myself would like to return to real forum

it's only morphix who thinks he knows more than he actually does. However, his keyboard skill is astonishing, I doubt that any member would want to take him on - he'll drown the opposition.
Flud is more prepared to listen to opposing arguments. I think he will make a positive contribution to the forum.

 

[morphix]

I

d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.

Since that is the only relevant one from a pedelec law making point of view.

Your overall proposition is that the behaviour in this forum could lead to the law being changed to all our disadvantage. I say that is fantasy and this is why:

I explained already above, why it was necessary to show the bigger picture and not just focus on the e-bike context. We're discussing whether it's likely the government will eventually regulate the e-bike market. To make an assessment on whether that is likely, we have to consider the political makeup of the UK (and the EU, assuming we remain members) and past history and track record on other situations. So yeah, I think it's relevant, but let's look at the one aspect you have picked off the list and focus on that..

I largely agree, but these things are not under discussion. My comment was in the context of what we are discussing.

Let me just illustrate with just one item from your previous long list:

d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.

Since that is the only relevant one from a pedelec law making point of view.

Your overall proposition is that the behaviour in this forum could lead to the law being changed to all our disadvantage. I say that is fantasy and this is why:

That's not quite what I'm saying. That's a somewhat over-simplification.

What I'm saying was:

1) e-bike users are an identifiable collective body, of like-minded people with common interest, using the same products, supplied by a recognised and unregulated industry. So as far as the government perception goes, the e-bike community and the e-bike industry are closely linked. You don't see this in a lot of industries. However due to the hobbyist nature of e-bikes and the ease of small businesses being able to bring products to market, it's clearly evolved that way.

2) this website is a significant stakeholder in the industry, being probably the longest running and largest that is focused on e-bikes. It has established itself as the most prominent e-bike site and forum where like-minded people discuss and trade these products. It's also a commercial business with sponsors and advertisers offering the products to end users. The site is essentially then a social meeting place and also a marketplace. That is the crucial part, the marketplace aspect and the fact you have consumers meeting together. That means the website has a lot of influence over consumers buying behaviour and also e-bikes in general. We have seen evidence of this in the past. For example if a new product enters the e-bike market (take Speedict as an example) it quickly spreads like wildfire on the forum and everyone is discussing it and lots of people begin buying and installing them before long. That happened, because of the pedelecs site.

3) As we have heard, many members of the forum are also sellers/trade members, and they are not only advertising products on the site, but also engaging in the forum discussions and offering advice to consumers. Here again is the critical part, the advice part.

So it simplify it down:

The website is an industry stakeholder, it has significant influence in the industry, with buyers and traders are engaging freely in an unregulated marketplace.

And my point is, these facts mean that the website has the potential to lead new consumers towards illegal and potentially lethal and dangerous products.

One scenario is that the site (as it is operated now) has the potential, to create trends towards those higher-powered e-bike products, and for younger people to be drawn to the site if they get the notion that a 1000W e-bike kit fitted to a cheap MTB is a quick and easy alternative to a motorbike, with no legal consequences...thus enabling them to by-pass all the legal restrictions and costs.

Potentially you could have a 1000W e-bike in the hands of a 14 or 15 year old, with no driving or road cycling experience and who's parents are not very clued up. And that is setting the stage for a serious and possibly fatal accident to occur. Another scenario is that you have someone convert a bicycle with a 1000W kit which is wholly unsuitable for driving at 30-40mph, and they end up killing themselves and/or someone else.

That only has to happen ONCE. And we're all in trouble. The entire industry and this website will face legal questions, if it turns out he was a member of this site and active on the forum. How did a 14 year old end up on an illegal motorbike? How was able to build that? Oh, pedelecs website helped him do that and this company sold him parts and certain adults helped him assemble the bike with advice.

Therefore the website has has some responsibilities, you could argue, to ensure that consumers are properly informed, about the legal aspects of e-bikes, due to the amount of influence the site has, and the fact you have traders and buyers engaging in an unregulated marketplace, which anyone including children can join freely.

Ther are a tiny number of threads about illegal e-bikes in this forum. Those threads are unrepresentative of the total membership. In turn the membership at about 8% is unrepresentative of the UK e-biking scene.

Quantity is not the issue flecc. It's the potential for even just one fatality or serious accident which leaves someone critically injured. And that potential is very real, when you have someone zooming around on pavements and on roads on what is an electric motorbike in terms of speed, without any crash helmet, possibly no driving experience or license, and certainly no vehicle type approval or MOT safety checks.

This then automatically becomes a public safety issue for the government. Just one incident resulting in a death or critical injury accident, and it very likely result in a public safety inquiry into whether e-bikes need more regulation than at present.

The UK in total is only a miniscule part of the EU pedelec scene, and the UK isn't even a full member of the EU.

You keep coming back to quantity and assuming because there's only a small number of threads or discussion on illegal e-bikes, that it's not an issue or the risk is not there. Even if only ONE person in the entire UK has a 1500W e-bike, the effect will be the same, as if you had 10 people involved in an accident on 250W bikes in 12 months.

Think of it in terms of the aftermath. You have 1 or more people dead, and the cause, was an illegal electric motorbike which came about, because of an unregulated marketplace and these products being readily available to anyone on eBay and sites like pedelecs.

This raises serious public safety issues and questions for a government.

Although there may not be 10,000's of these high-powered illegal e-bikes on our roads, and there haven't been any major accidents yet, the government is likely to the logical view and approach (If there's one major accident) that "we better nip this in the bud now, and regulate this unregulated and potentially very dangerous marketplace, before we have more incidents like this, and then we're accused of standing by and not acting sooner"

 

[trex]

morphix, you keep talking about this '1000W e-bike', you should know that the '1000W' bike that Cyclotricity sell is actually legal while your kit is not.

 

[Plasmadaddy]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[dinger19]

it's only morphix who thinks he knows more than he actually does. However, his keyboard skill is astonishing

Not really all he's doing is cut and paste.

 

[morphix]

it's only morphix who thinks he knows more than he actually does. However, his keyboard skill is astonishing, I doubt that any member would want to take him on - he'll drown the opposition.
Flud is more prepared to listen to opposing arguments. I think he will make a positive contribution to the forum.

I don't think I know more than I do. I know what I've seen and I'm merely providing the facts to support what I say is a likely outcome. We have seen it happen to other industries, why you people think the e-bike is somehow untouchable, is beyond me.

Even a longstanding e-bike business and former association member has told you himself, that we ARE moving towards greater regulation.

It seems to be you who thinks you no more than him?

I certainly have no problem at all with having a separate section for illegal bikes and would happily comply with any / all regulations about posting in it.
As long as i still have the ability to ask questions / seek advice on my bikes iam a happy bunny.
Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Brilliant. We have some agreement emerging which keeps everyone happy

 

[morphix]

Not really all he's doing is cut and paste.

I can assure you I type everything

 

[soundwave]

 

[morphix]

morphix, you keep talking about this '1000W e-bike', you should know that the '1000W' bike that Cyclotricity sell is actually legal while your kit is not.

Wrong on both counts. Now you're just trolling.

a 1000W motor on any bicycle automatically becomes illegal. It's never road legal, on public roads unless you put it through vehicle type registration and all the rest.

My kit is 250W and is fully compliant with current UK law.

 

[dinger19]

Brilliant. We have some agreement emerging which keeps everyone happy

Why should anyone have agreement with you and Flud the way you 2 have been preaching it's unbelievable .

 

[Artstu]

I can assure you I type everything

Wow I think this could well be the only post of yours I've read fully, all the others and my brain just switches off after the first sentence.

 

[EddiePJ]

Somewhat disappointing is, is that the off road section has now gone.

Like many I took the off road terminology to mean exactly that. People using e-mtb's off road, be that on either public and private land.

As things now stand, legal e-mtb users now have nowhere other than in the Electric Cycles section to post threads.

Given that the thread started by iain85 How many people are using there e-bike off-road? has been the forums most successful thread, and indeed this weekend saw it reach 100 pages, 2,000 replies and 69,000 views, clearly shows that emtb's are topic favourite.

News and views of new emtb's and associated emtb topics also now have nowhere to be posted.

I have zero interest in bikes that are currently not legal to use on anything other than private land with no public access, so posting in the newly titled section holds no interest to me.

 

[morphix]

I don't understand why we want the biggest Pedelec Forum in UK to be the very place any one wanting negative information about pedelecs would come to...???

It shouts "look at us ignoring all your rules,this is what we are doing, you cant stop us"

Well they can if they choose to.

It does seem that way to me, exactly that way Flud.

I've been away from the site since 2014.

I return, and we have this very confrontational set of people here who weren't here before, who are all dismissive and even openly defiant of the law,

While astonishingly others who are extremely complacent and in denial that anything needs doing, advocating doing nothing, whilst others are throwing insults and basically telling us folks who care about safety and also protecting the industry for everyone including THEM telling us to shut-up or basically **** off.

It's just illogical behaviour and the calibre of membership since 2014 seems to have dropped down about 10 notches. A lot of old faces and people have gone I see. I wonder why?

I'm not sure whether we're dealing with a load of teenagers or whether its just a load of speed freaks who see this as some kind attack on them on them personally. It's almost like debating with hardcore American Republicans on the gun-reforms issue, the biggest issue over there now alongside immigration. It's like banging your head against a brick wall. They just see any suggestion of gun reform measures to try and reduce the 70 odd people a day now being shot in the US, as an attack on their freedoms and attempt to take away their guns. Just cannot debate logically with people who don't do logic and common sense.

There are some people here besides us who can see the common sense behind our cautious reasoning and the need to separate off-road from road-legal. Thanks for those for posting, but I think we need more people to be brave and stand up on this issue.

 

[trex]

Wrong on both counts. Now you're just trolling.

a 1000W motor on any bicycle automatically becomes illegal. It's never road legal, on public roads unless you put it through vehicle type registration and all the rest.

My kit is 250W and is fully compliant with current UK law.

while you look up what exactly the Cyclotricity 1000W Stealth is:

http://cyclotricity.com/stealth-1000w/

Let's check your bike out. Can you tell us who is the manufacturer of your bike? that moral person has to issue you with a certificate of conformity. Assuming that you act yourself as the manufacturer, the basis for issuing a CoC is a test report from a recognized test lab. Have you got a copy of that test report?

 

[morphix]

Somewhat disappointing is, is that the off road section has now gone.

Like many I took the off road terminology to mean exactly that. People using e-mtb's off road, be that on either public and private land.

As things now stand, legal e-mtb users now have nowhere other than in the Electric Cycles section to post threads.

Given that the thread started by iain85 How many people are using there e-bike off-road? has been the forums most successful thread, and indeed this weekend saw it reach 100 pages, 2,000 replies and 69,000 views, clearly shows that emtb's are topic favourite.

News and views of new emtb's and associated emtb topics also now have nowhere to be posted.

I have zero interest in bikes that are currently not legal to use on anything other than private land with no public access, so posting in the newly titled section holds no interest to me.

I was wrong about the loss of trade members killing the forum, for me it is the loss of a dedicated off road/emtb section.

Interesting post Eddie. I wasn't aware we had an off-road category!

That's odd how the site forum operator decided to remove it and merge that category into the general electric bicycle category.

I wonder if that was for commercial reasons?

 

[morphix]

Wow I think this could well be the only post of yours I've read fully, all the others and my brain just switches off after the first sentence.

People do struggle to keep up with me. I can go even faster! I'm just warming up ;-)

 

[morphix]

while you look up what exactly the Cyclotricity 1000W Stealth is:

http://cyclotricity.com/stealth-1000w/

Let's check your bike out. Can you tell us who is the manufacturer of your bike? that moral person has to issue you with a certificate of conformity. Assuming that you act yourself as the manufacturer, the basis for issuing a CoC is a test report from a recognized test lab. Have you got a copy of that test report?

Firstly, I don't have to explain myself to you or anyone on this forum. And it's none of your business what e-bike I ride, but it's actually in my signature which e-bikes I have if you read it.

Secondly, just the fact it says 1000W as Flud said, shouts ILLEGAL.