New Name for Forum

[flecc]

So why condone the illegal ones Flecc. There,s a complete build story about some bloke building a 750w 8fun and going on to report he can dob35"mph on level with it..
There,s a thread about a 1000w cyclo getting derestricted , and one about a 500 w been changed..Thats 20% of threads in electric bike section discussing illegal stuff.
It just sends completely wrong message to newcomers and any authorities looking in.

Why do you always express yourself in such extreme ways? I don't condone them and don't take part in the illegal build threads.

My use of the term e-bike refers to those that don't conform in minor ways, such as those with grandfather rights to have full acting throttles. I also used it in the 13 years when almost all were e-bikes since they didn't conform to pedelec law at the time.

My position is clear, I don't approve of builds or supplies that deliberately set out to be very illegal, but I am neither a police officer nor an administrator on this forum.

The matter is one for the relevant authorities and not one for me.
.

 

[morphix]

So why condone the illegal ones Flecc. There,s a complete build story about some bloke building a 750w 8fun and going on to report he can dob35"mph on level with it..
There,s a thread about a 1000w cyclo getting derestricted , and one about a 500 w been changed..Thats 20% of threads in electric bike section discussing illegal stuff.
It just sends completely wrong message to newcomers and any authorities looking in.

Absolutely. I quite agree Flud, and I'm astonished I must say at flecc's complacency and seemingly indifference on this issue. I have a great deal of respect for flecc as one the original veterans of this forum, an industry insider, and a very clever chap. On this issue though, I think we're entirely at odds. The forum seem to think it's "a team of two" who are on the "let's be careful here guys and keep it legal" camp. It's not the case. There's many people on this forum if you read back, who also share the same feelings of unease, and just know, it does not make sense promoting or encouraging 1000W e-bikes and illegal use on this forum so openly in the general e-bike discussion, nor does it make sense allowing illegal bike sellers to advertise here without some kind of warning on the advertising, or putting those advertisers on an "off-road" page area and explaining the law below.

This site has some social and industry responsibilities now, it's grown very large and clearly has a significant influence in the marketplace. Newcomers to e-bikes (like myself back in 2010) come here looking for advice on e-bikes with no knowledge at all, and recommendations on which bikes to buy or which kits. Unless we have clear categories for off-road and road-legal, and clear forum policy on no "cross over", this forum and site is giving out the entirely wrong message to consumers, that "yes the law is this, but nevermind, you can ignore it and buy this instead".

 

[morphix]

Why do you always express yourself in such extreme ways? I don't condone them and don't take part in the illegal build threads.

My use of the term e-bike refers to those that don't conform in minor ways, such as those with grandfather rights to have full acting throttles. I also used it in the 13 years when almost all were e-bikes since they didn't conform to pedelec law at the time.

My position is clear, I don't approve of builds or supplies that deliberately set out to be very illegal, but I am neither a police officer nor an administrator on this forum.

The matter is one for the relevant authorities and not one for me.
.

I take your point flecc and I can see this is ruffling a lot of feathers and causing big friction on the forum. That really suggests to me, we have a problem here.

And it's pretty simple the solution. Separate off-road and from road legal, and make a clear separate area for all things off-road. Then there will be no problem, and people can discuss 1000W bikes to their hearts content! And everyone who comes to this forum with zero-knowledge of e-bikes will clearly see, what is legal and what is not.

Regarding us not acting as regulators or "police men" on the forum, that won't be necessary if we just act responsibility and use some common sense here. At the moment, common sense has clearly departed this site with the arrival of new members and changes in the marketplace. It's moved a long way since I was last here.

We definitely do, all of us, have to take some responsibility here to speak out and act sensibly, if we want to retain the great freedoms we enjoy, allowing easy and cheap access to e-bikes without any massive red tape regulation on it. We should not be complacent on this issue, even if only 0.5% of the market is illegal (in reality it's likely to be more like > 10% and growing).

 

[flecc]

Absolutely. I quite agree Flud, and I'm astonished I must say at flecc's complacency and seemingly indifference on this issue.

I'm afraid you and Flud are guilty of gross exaggeration, inflating a very minor issue into one that's all out of proportion. So what if there are three or four threads about illegal builds, what are they compared to the circa 150,000 electric assist bikes out there and our near 65 millions population?

In the greater scheme of things we are probably one of the most legal areas in mobile society. In the motorcycle world illegal practices are very widespread, far more than in ours. And in the motoring world, breaching speed limits is more the rule than the exception. And as traffic police know only too well, they don't have to look very hard for tachograph fiddling on trucks.

The overwhelming majority of e-bikers are legally compliant with both power and speed limitation, making the e-biking scene positively angelic compared to the other areas mentioned.

So will you please stop the exaggeration and reflect the true favourable position.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Now we no longer have the BEBA I'd like to see some industry body emerge which gives badge approval to all businesses in the industry who comply with a simple "good practice charter" and that should really cover a,b,c above. Then it will be easy for consumers to spot what's legal, what's not, and which companies are providing safe, legal products.

Thanks Morphix,

The safest way to make sure a bike is legal is to ask to see the EN15194 certificate that applies to exactly the model being purchased.

If you remember we at BEBA got into terrible trouble from those here who did not want to get involved. We wrote a good practice charter that we all adhered to and were roundly slated.

Interestingly however most of those who were involved In BEBA are still here and doing well. I supose it shows that commitment in a business pays off!

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Why do you always express yourself in such extreme ways? I don't condone them and don't take part in the illegal build threads.

My use of the term e-bike refers to those that don't conform in minor ways, such as those with grandfather rights to have full acting throttles. I also used it in the 13 years when almost all were e-bikes since they didn't conform to pedelec law at the time.

My position is clear, I don't approve of builds or supplies that deliberately set out to be very illegal, but I am neither a police officer nor an administrator on this forum.

The matter is one for the relevant authorities and not one for me.
.

Why do you always express yourself in such extreme ways? I don't condone them and don't take part in the illegal build threads.

My use of the term e-bike refers to those that don't conform in minor ways, such as those with grandfather rights to have full acting throttles. I also used it in the 13 years when almost all were e-bikes since they didn't conform to pedelec law at the time.

My position is clear, I don't approve of builds or supplies that deliberately set out to be very illegal, but I am neither a police officer nor an administrator on this forum.

The matter is one for the relevant authorities and not one for me.
.

Don't take it personally flecc, my apologies I should have said why do we allow Forum to condone illegal bikes..
I fully understand you personally do not, but that is where problem lies. We are all associated with the attitudes expressed on and by the forum.

 

[morphix]

Let me just make clear, I'm not anti-1000W bikes or hostile to anyone here who chooses to ride a bike on the road which not fully legal.

That's entirely their choice.

The marketplace is unregulated and fairly relaxed. The police and government (at the moment) are not showing any signs of direct market regulation...so people are naturally exploiting that relaxed situation.. nobody has got nicked yet to my knowledge for riding an illegal e-bike, and on the whole, most people who have high-powered e-bikes act very responsibly, so fair do's and kudos to those people, for no major accidents or news incidents.

All I'm saying is on the forum debate to those people, just be a bit more tactful and respectful of the law on a very public main e-bike community forum because what you do will influence others and newcomers eventually.You are part of the marketplace and e-bike community, we're like one entity as far as the government is concerned.

We all end up losing in the end if it comes to an "e-bike industry v the government" situation.

People may say I'm overreacting, being alarmist, paranoid. Maybe I am. A little paranoia is a good thing when it concerns safe-guarding your freedoms and rights!

I don't want to make enemies here with anyone, or fall out with people, nor waste hours on slanging matches or long drawn out legal arguments.

It's rather pointless and I'm sure we've all got much better things to do (like riding our bikes!). Everyone knows the law, debating it won't change it. I just want to get along with everyone, regardless of what bike they choose to ride. However, this is a public forum and website for all-things-ebike and it's become recognized as the main place to go.

All I'm asking is that people show some respect for the law. Just be careful with illegal bikes and apply some common sense. Remember what you're doing is riding an illegal motorcycle on the roads, and whilst you may be able to do that now, don't assume you will forever. Don't put at risk your freedoms and the entire industry for everyone.

I would not want to see a repeat the health supplements fiasco on the e-bike industry. That would be a positive nightmare for all of us, many small businesses that fund and support this site would probably go under or have to withdraw from the market, and even this site would lose out.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I'm afraid you and Flud are guilty of gross exaggeration, inflating a very minor issue into one that's all out of proportion. So what if there are three or four threads about illegal builds, what are they compared to the circa 150,000 electric assist bikes out there and our near 65 millions population?

In the greater scheme of things we are probably one of the most legal areas in mobile society. In the motorcycle world illegal practices are very widespread, far more than in ours. And in the motoring world, breaching speed limits is more the rule than the exception. And as traffic police know only too well, they don't have to look very hard for tachograph fiddling on trucks.

The overwhelming majority of e-bikers are legally compliant with both power and speed limitation, making the e-biking scene positively angelic compared to the other areas mentioned.

So will you please stop the exaggeration and reflect the true favourable position.
.

But Flecc your stand point is contradictory. If the community does not support illegal ebikes, you do not and in general the forum does not why allow the interest towards illegal bikes distort what you see as reality.
The Forum does give an impression of support far greater than the actual situation, so what's the problem with not allowing open discussion about building/ owning/ derestricting them ?
Saying the Forum should allow this to happen actually promotes it.
I,d also like repeat again , along lines of Morphix, I dont want to stop anyone doing anything. If you want to put a fireblade engine in a mtb and tear down high street that's upto you. Its a free world.
The Forum however is the Pedelec show case. It should not be seen to be condoning, supporting or helping with illegal bikes. Its like a governing body of some sport condoning illegal activity. It just should not happen both from a point of our responsibility and one of protecting the privileges we currently enjoy.Like pedelecing through Peak District...which is where I,m going in 30 minutes..

 

[morphix]

I'm afraid you and Flud are guilty of gross exaggeration, inflating a very minor issue into one that's all out of proportion. So what if there are three or four threads about illegal builds, what are they compared to the circa 150,000 electric assist bikes out there and our near 65 millions population?

In the greater scheme of things we are probably one of the most legal areas in mobile society. In the motorcycle world illegal practices are very widespread, far more than in ours. And in the motoring world, breaching speed limits is more the rule than the exception. And as traffic police know only too well, they don't have to look very hard for tachograph fiddling on trucks.

The overwhelming majority of e-bikers are legally compliant with both power and speed limitation, making the e-biking scene positively angelic compared to the other areas mentioned.

So will you please stop the exaggeration and reflect the true favourable position.
.

Flecc, with respect, I'm not suggesting we have a major massive problem or the industry is in dire peril of imminent massive government regulation.

I'm just saying, regulation is a distinct possibility, because we're not talking about something trivial here. This is a major public safety issue if you have illegal motorbikes (regardless of whether its 1 or 1,000) riding at 30mph+ on public footpaths and roads, totally registered, unlicensed etc etc.

Even putting the legal and regulation issues aside, and the scale of it. If even one person gets seriously or even fatally injured (whether the rider or a third party) because some youngster wasn't very responsible, or gained entirely the wrong impression from his peers on this site, or some seller sold him illegal kit via this site, then that's a very sad day.

Common sense should suggest that heavy government regulation of this totally unregulated marketplace is a possibility and certainly more likely to happen if someone is going 30mph+ on a pavement or road on a bicycle that's really an electric motorbike but which has not been engineered properly, nor safety compliance tested through the vehicle type registration process and MOT, and it eventually results in a very bad accident.

It's a risk. Small, maybe. But it's a risk which could become very significant as complacency sets in (as it appears to have done already) if we act irresponsibly and don't apply some common sense and some degree of self-regulation and legal guidance.

 

[flecc]

But Flecc your stand point is contradictory. If the community does not support illegal ebikes, you do not and in general the forum does not why allow the interest towards illegal bikes distort what you see as reality.
The Forum does give an impression of support far greater than the actual situation, so what's the problem with not allowing open discussion about building/ owning/ derestricting them ?
Saying the Forum should allow this to happen actually promotes it.

We are an international forum with many international members and to reflect that, we have a forum covering bikes that are not UK/EU legal. That's one reason why posts in this subject are not banned

As for the representation of illegal bikes in posting numbers, it's inevitable. There's very little that can be posted about legal pedelecs if they are working. On the contrary, when creating something outside common practice and manufacturing custom, there's a lot to post and inquire about.

As a result an entirely false impression can be gained, and both you and Morphix have fallen into that trap. I've posted at length about how illegal the situation was years ago and how much it's improved now, but that's been ignored in favour of the false impressions.

And you've also now ignored my last post illustrating how very legal we are compared with the rest of the road users, once again favouring distortion.
.

 

[Plasmadaddy]

People may say I'm overreacting, being alarmist, paranoid. Maybe I am. A little paranoia is a good thing when it concerns safe-guarding your freedoms and rights!

I'd say "hysterical" and not in the funny sense!

 

[flecc]

It's a risk. Small, maybe.

Vanishingly small.

In a world where large proportions and sometimes majorities of road users in other much larger groups are behaving in far more illegal ways, why on earth would the DfT or anyone else single out our tiny world for action on a miniscule minority issue?

In these circumstances the assumption that they might is simply ridiculous. The DfT and other relevant bodies are simply unable to cope with the far more important demands in the other road usage areas.
.

 

[morphix]

I'm afraid you and Flud are guilty of gross exaggeration, inflating a very minor issue into one that's all out of proportion. So what if there are three or four threads about illegal builds, what are they compared to the circa 150,000 electric assist bikes out there and our near 65 millions population?

In the greater scheme of things we are probably one of the most legal areas in mobile society. In the motorcycle world illegal practices are very widespread, far more than in ours. And in the motoring world, breaching speed limits is more the rule than the exception. And as traffic police know only too well, they don't have to look very hard for tachograph fiddling on trucks.

The overwhelming majority of e-bikers are legally compliant with both power and speed limitation, making the e-biking scene positively angelic compared to the other areas mentioned.

So will you please stop the exaggeration and reflect the true favourable position.
.

Flecc the fact we are one of the most regulated countries in the Western world, should be the reason why, you're sharing some of our concerns here. We do indeed have a long history of heavy government regulation and intervention on marketplaces and society itself. Many freedoms have been taken away by successive governments over the last 3 decades.

The motorcycle world, is already regulated and is much much larger than 150,000 ebikes. So I don't think you can argue the case that more illegal activities go on in that marketplace, and they're not banning motorcycles or tightening up regulation, so we're going to be left untouched by the government.

It's a totally different situation. E-bikes is an immature marketplace, they haven't been around very long and so the government has not moved in to regulate it, because it's deemed too small and unnecessary. Once it grows to a significant size (and I would say we're past that size now), make no mistake, the government will carry out a review of the marketplace and order a comprehensive report into the e-bike marketplace with a public safety review to determine whether direct market regulation is needed. Once they start hearing that so many illegal bikes are around, or reports of 1 or 2 incidents here and there with accidents or police seizures of bikes from youths, the writing will be on the wall. Heavy regulation of a totally unregulated marketplace will come quite swiftly. We had a post just earlier, from a business owner in the industry who fully backs up that position, that the e-bike industry is already moving towards government regulation.

Nobody wants to see e-bikes regulated in the same manner as motorcycles, or health supplements, where every single one has to be licensed and registered, government approved..right? I'm sure we're all agreed on that? It would absolutely kill the DIY market and deny those who cannot afford ready built e-bikes the chance to build and ride one inexpensively. Building e-bikes is a fantastic hobby and this forum is a great place for that, so that is what is at risk here. If the market does become heavily regulated, I cannot see DIY kits fitting into that model.

So what can we do, to make it less likely, that happens, or to limit the scale and extent of any future government regulation?

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Good post Flecc but I,m afraid I don't agree.
I did read all your previous comments and fully understand your premise, you have explained it well.
I stand by my opinion, the Forum should take responsibility and make efforts to be seen to be distancing itself from any illegal bikes.
If the Forum does not I suspect the government will.
We,ve altrady seen one major trader making efforts to distance themselves from the site. Surely that tells you something.

Its actually quite simple.
The ebike/ pedelec market is going to explode. Bosch/ Yamaha and others are churning out units by their milliion.
This Forum can play a part in the development and usage of Pedelecs in the UK, to do so I guarantee it needs to clean its act up. If it doesn't, it will not.

 

[Fordulike]

I stand by my opinion, the Forum should take responsibility and make efforts to be seen to be distancing itself from any illegal bikes.
If the Forum does not I suspect the government will.

Which governmental department will deal with that then?

 

[flecc]

Many freedoms have been taken away by successive governments over the last 3 decades.

Nobody wants to see e-bikes regulated in the same manner as motorcycles, or health supplements, where every single one has to be licensed and registered, government approved..right? I'm sure we're all agreed on that?

In our case that's the reverse of the truth. At one time power assisted pedal bikes had to be registered with number plates front and rear, VED with tax disc, third party insured and a full motorcycle licence was necessary.

In stages all that has been removed in favour of sanity and more freedom, and the authorities are not about to lose their sanity on this subject.
.

 

[morphix]

Vanishingly small.

In a world where large proportions and sometimes majorities of road users in other much larger groups are behaving in far more illegal ways, why on earth would the DfT or anyone else single out our tiny world for action on a miniscule minority issue?

In these circumstances the assumption that they might is simply ridiculous. The DfT and other relevant bodies are simply unable to cope with the far more important demands in the other road usage areas.
.

Why on earth does the government do anything flecc? How long is a piece of a string?

a) Because they feel under pressure from a few sensationalist media headline stories.
b Because they feel it's in the public interest.
c) Because they see an opportunity to introduce yet another stealth tax or generate revenues.
d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.
e) Because the government decides the market cannot regulate itself and there's a lack of consumer awareness or guidelines on what is legal.
f) Market changes, because more and more younger people are owning e-bikes and the government is concerned over the age limit, and Highway Code proficiency so wants to restrict and control access to e-bikes.
g) Simply because a committee of MP's votes to do it.


Take your pick! I'm sure there's at least a dozen more reasons why the government might decide complete regulation of e-bikes is necessary.

 

[Fordulike]

Why on earth does the government do anything flecc? How long is a piece of a string?

a) Because they feel under pressure from a few sensationalist media headline stories.
b Because they feel it's in the public interest.
c) Because they see an opportunity to introduce yet another stealth tax or generate revenues.
d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.
e) Because the government decides the market cannot regulate itself and there's a lack of consumer awareness or guidelines on what is legal.
f) Market changes, because more and more younger people are owning e-bikes and the government is concerned over the age limit, and Highway Code proficiency so wants to restrict and control access to e-bikes.
g) Simply because a committee of MP's votes to do it.


Take your pick! I'm sure there's at least a dozen more reasons why the government might decide complete regulation of e-bikes is necessary.

I'll pick (c) every time!

 

[flecc]

We,ve altrady seen one major trader making efforts to distance themselves from the site. Surely that tells you something.

Indeed it does, it tells me that trader likes to be seen as squeaky clean, as any responsible business does. For the same reasons traders do not take part in the Endless Sphere forum.

That doesn't in any way illustrate that illegality is a major issue. It simply isn't, the vast majority of e-bikes sold are legal and the majority of their buyers don't even know this forum exists. This forum's membership is only around 8% or less of the e-bike owners in the UK.
.

 

[flecc]

Why on earth does the government do anything flecc? How long is a piece of a string?

a) Because they feel under pressure from a few sensationalist media headline stories.
b Because they feel it's in the public interest.
c) Because they see an opportunity to introduce yet another stealth tax or generate revenues.
d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.
e) Because the government decides the market cannot regulate itself and there's a lack of consumer awareness or guidelines on what is legal.
f) Market changes, because more and more younger people are owning e-bikes and the government is concerned over the age limit, and Highway Code proficiency so wants to restrict and control access to e-bikes.
g) Simply because a committee of MP's votes to do it.


Take your pick! I'm sure there's at least a dozen more reasons why the government might decide complete regulation of e-bikes is necessary.

This list I'm afraid shows you've lost it, consisting as it does of pure fantasy in direct contradiction of the real world facts and trends.
.
.