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All I'm saying is, we as the largest e-bike community have to consider the impact that mainstream *clearly* illegal bikes are going to have on are our roads. The risks involved and what that could potentially mean for all of us, as owners, as well as people involved in the industry who's livelihoods depends on e-bikes being cheap and freely available to ride.
I think that's being a bit hysterical. There's now more electric bikes around than ever. If you go back five years ago, there were a larger proportion of illegal bikes being mentioned on the forum than there are now. Like Flecc mentioned, bikes with 1000w motors on the road are pretty rare. I've never seen one when I've been out and about, and I expect you haven't either.

In fact this whole thread is hysterical, starting with the first post and you've been suckered into it. Listen to what established members are saying. the forum used to be fun when people were just helping each other and discussing their bikes enthusiastically. These sort of threads are not going to help the well-being of the forum, neither are they going to help your cause, nor your business. I can tell you that I won't be the only one who won't want to help you if you carry on like this. You need to think about these things.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Bu
I think that's being a bit hysterical. There's now more electric bikes around than ever. If you go back five years ago, there were a larger proportion of illegal bikes being mentioned on the forum than there are now. Like Flecc mentioned, bikes with 1000w motors on the road are pretty rare. I've never seen one when I've been out and about, and I expect you haven't either.

In fact this whole thread is hysterical, starting with the first post and you've been suckered into it. Listen to what established members are saying. the forum used to be fun when people were just helping each other and discussing their bikes enthusiastically. These sort of threads are not going to help the well-being of the forum, neither are they going to help your cause, nor your business. I can tell you that I won't be the only one who won't want to help you if you carry on like this. You need to think about these things.
But d8veh you were the very person openly telling poster how to derestrict his bike ?? In all seriousness it is good of you but not openly on Pedelec forum..
We are going around in circles. I do genuinely apologise for hassle this has caused
I think KTM, myself and Morphix have all said enough, explained our position. It probably is just time for such as us to leave and start another Forum.
There is no bad will or feeling on my part. I know even this post will be derided but I,ve said enough.
Its not my Forum but I really think mistakes are being made.
Good Cycling.
As an aside, I think KTM industries have come out of this showing a great deal of responsibility. He,they, have put a principal before short term popularity and quick sales. I cant say I,ll be buying a KTM next, the Haibike is great and to be fair James Cycles demonstrated a similar stance. But well done. I,ll certainly demo a KTM.
 
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Fordulike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2010
3,802
1,538
I,d also try and get posters to use capital letters and punctuation but that might be a step too far.
I,d also try and stop folk starting sentences with "and" ,which is grammatically wrong.
And don,t forget folk who use a comma where an apostrophe should be :p
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,284
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Sevenoaks Kent
He's reminding people of what's at stake. And it's YOUR freedom to own and ride an e-bike, without paying lots of money to the government and climbing through loads of hoops.

And if this sheer stupidity continues, combined with a lack of any regulatory body now (I hear BEBA has disappeared with the insolvency of Wisper Bikes), like Flud said, it's just a matter of when, not if, the government adopts a regulate e-bikes policy. And if the UK does leave the EU this June, it could be even easier and happen very fast. Any excuse to make money or generate a stealth tax (and e-bikes is a great one) and the you can guarantee the government will be all over it.
Hi Mophix, should mention that Wisper is not insolvent. The company was closed when Wisper and FreeGo merged into the FreeGo Wisper Group. After 18 months it was mutually agreed by all parties that it was not in the best interest of either brand to remain together as both brands were competing for the same market at the same price point.

The merge between BEBA was agreed by all the BEBA members at a time when the larger brands started to enter the market. As most of them already belonged to BAGB it seemed sensible to group as one voice. BAGB has great connections in Government and has the recourses to run an influential association. All the old BEBA members along with the guys that came into the market more recently are now a part of the EBike group within the BA. It works very well.

All the best David
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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Spreading more misleading myths I see. Even god did it when he brought about the King James version of the bible:

http://www.thewriter.com/what-we-think/style-guide/and-and-but-why-its-okay-to-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction/
Spreading more misleading myths I see. Even god did it when he brought about the King James version of the bible:

http://www.thewriter.com/what-we-think/style-guide/and-and-but-why-its-okay-to-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction/
Hi D8...
Here's a picture of a Pedelec I built last year...Kits are ob ebay..all in £150..Trouble is its a bit slow, even with custom expansion chamber..
I know you are resident expert on making things go like feck..
Any ideas..( and no not that one)IMG-20160502-WA0001.jpg

Before folk start crying hypocrit..its never seen British roads ( or any public roads come to think of it) Its in Spain, use in Spain's official offroad areas. .( which are sadly lacking in UK)
I,ve tried to be reasonable with you D8, even apologised. Obviously wasting my time..
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
it does not run on battery, it's a motorbike. How can you call it a pedelec, flud?
 

Kenny

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 13, 2007
383
111
West of Scotland
I think KTM, myself and Morphix have all said enough, explained our position. It probably is just time for such as us to leave and start another Forum.
There is no bad will or feeling on my part. I know even this post will be derided but I,ve said enough.
Taxi for Flud! o_O
 
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Oh s
it does not run on battery, it's a motorbike. How can you call it a pedelec, flud?
Oh so now you want a definition of a pedelec..
Well its got pedals, motor assists you to pedal it..its no more a motorbike than a 1000w ebike..
Its not as quick as some ebikes are..
I,m willing to accept legal definition of a pedelec but is forum ??
Its only about 2 5 kW, well down on torque ?? Why is it worse than a 1000w ebike ?? ( its got a battery BTW, its total loss ignition)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,221
30,619
Oh s
Oh so now you want a definition of a pedelec..
Well its got pedals, motor assists you to pedal it..its no more a motorbike than a 1000w ebike..
Its not as quick as some ebikes are..
I,m willing to accept legal definition of a pedelec but is forum ??
Clearly not a pedelec, that word derived from pedal and electric.

A pedic or pedalic maybe, combining pedal and i.c.

However, we had a specific name for these long ago, it's an Autocycle.
.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Clearly not a pedelec, that word derived from pedal and electric.

A pedic or pedalic maybe, combining pedal and i.c.
.
Well that's your definition...today..
Try running it without electricity..But
Yes , you are right..its obviously not a Pedelec but neither is a 1000w ebike..

In reality both are equally illegal on roads , yet we condone one ( actually actively support) and tell me other isn't a pedelec.

Which definition of pedelec do you want to use, your own, the legal one or mine ??
(I,m including my petrol one?)
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
flud, you make it sound like this forum is full of people with 1000W bikes. I bet you can't name more than 3 members with them.
I have been here long enough to notice that most speed e-bikers are fit cyclists and ride German bikes fitted with a dongle like Soundwave. Some members fit BBS02 to their push bikes like Fordulike. The BBS02 are typically 500W motors, not 1000W. The vast majority of membership are pensioners like myself!
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,221
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Try running it without electricity.
Dead easy, the first i.c.s did fine without it,. Glow plugs work brilliantly once heated up.

Which definition of pedelec do you want to use, your own, the legal one or mine ??
(I,m including my petrol one?)
The one I've always used, the legal one which is my own too. Those that don't conform to the law I call e-bikes.
.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
All your examples can be directly attributed to deaths. Except fox hunting with hounds, not sure anyone's been killed yet but dogs ripping animals to bits is just plain cruel!

Cyclists have been and are being killed at a rate of knots, don't see the government banning cars, lorries or bikes or for that matter cycle racing where riders regularly hit 50+ m.p.h.
Way more than the average 20kg eBike.
The health supplements example has not been directly linked to deaths that are satisitically relevant. I've never heard of anyone dying from taking St John's Wort or a multi-vitamin supplement.

The point I was making seems to be lost on you anyway..

It's irrelevant why or how those markets came under massive regulation or things ended up being banned.

The point is, the government has shown willingness and the capability to do that quite rapidly without any opposition preventing it, on many many occasions. People say "oh it's impossible with e-bikes or will never happen, can't be enforced", are living in cloud coukoo land. Check the list of others who said the same, and look where they are now. Down the pub, reminiscing.

Never, ever, underestimate what the government is capable of doing. And likewise, don't become complacent about your freedoms and take them for granted, as a given. Things change.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,284
2,252
69
Sevenoaks Kent
The trade members do seem prolific on this forum, because it has so few actively posting non trade members.
I feel that trade members are here first and foremost for their business interests, thats why they pay to be on here. They are just salesmen to me and i dont trust much of what salesmen say.
Absolutely true. Anyone with an electric bike business that invests in the forum would hope to cover costs at least. However, most importantly the forum is a wonderful resource for anyone interested in investing in an electric bike and I for one would support Pedelecs for that alone.

We enjoy joining in. None of us are in the EBike industry to make a fortune, believe me. I have spent an hour reading this entire thread with great interest and have thoroughly enjoyed the cut and thrust. It's also a great way of finding out what the market wants and an invaluable resource for learning about our business!

Occasionaly we can offer a bit of an insight but there are so many people here that know so much about the industry, it's often not necessary!

If I can offer my twopence worth to this discussion....

Regulation is coming in fast, not only do we now have to conform to EN15194 our bikes must be individually certificated by TUV or SGS etc. As yet there have not been any checks to my knowledge at point of entry into the UK. However this will happen. It's the easiest way to regulate. I sell bikes into Australia, and have had to provide certification. Bikes without the correct certification are often impounded.

We now also have to be WEEE registered. Not many of us have yet, but most are in the process. Registration costs £12,000. EN15194 costs about £3,500 per model. We have 6 models. Within the next year or so anyone providing Ebikes in the the UK will have to conform or risk losing cargo at point of entry. The costs of conforming will drive out smaller businesses, these are the guys that tend to bring in the very high powered bikes.

Speed Pedelecs will eventually be legalised in the UK. As long as they conform to European regs they will continue to come into the UK, until then I believe we will see very little action from the authorities.

I may of course be completely wrong!

All the best David
 
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Mar 9, 2016
833
402
flud, you make it sound like this forum is full of people with 1000W bikes. I bet you can't name more than 3 members with them.
I have been here long enough to notice that most high speed e-bikers are fit cyclists and ride German bikes fitted with a dongle. Some members fit BBS02 to their push bikes. The BBS02 are bought for torque rather than speed and they are typically 500W motors. The vast majority of membership are pensioners!
So why condone the illegal ones Flecc. There,s a complete build story about some bloke building a 750w 8fun and going on to report he can dob35"mph on level with it..
There,s a thread about a 1000w cyclo getting derestricted , and one about a 500 w been changed..Thats 20% of threads in electric bike section discussing illegal stuff.
It just sends completely wrong message to newcomers and any authorities looking in.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
flud, you make it sound like this forum is full of people with 1000W bikes. I bet you can't name more than 3 members with them.
I have been here long enough to notice that most speed e-bikers are fit cyclists and ride German bikes fitted with a dongle like Soundwave. Some members fit BBS02 to their push bikes like Fordulike. The BBS02 are typically 500W motors, not 1000W. The vast majority of membership are pensioners like myself!
Trex there's enough opposition here against the voice of reason and common sense for a cause for concern, I'd say. I suspect there's quite a few new members who are riding illegal bikes, maybe not all 1000W granted, but quite a few think the law can be bent and should be ignored, regardless of the bigger picture, or the long term consequences it may have in an unregulated marketplace which is just ripe for government intervention.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Absolutely true. Anyone with an electric bike business that invests in the forum would hope to cover costs at least. However, most importantly the forum is a wonderful resource for anyone interested in investing in an electric bike and I did one would support Pedelecs for that alone.

We enjoy joining in. None of us are in the EBike industry to make a fortune, believe me. I have spent an hour reading this entire thread with great interest and have thoroughly enjoyed the cut and thrust. It's also a great way of finding out what the market wants and an invaluable resource for learning about our business!

Occasionaly we can offer a bit of an insight but there are so many people here that know so much about the industry, it's often not necessary!

If I can offer my twopence worth to this discussion....

Regulation is coming in fast, not only do we now have to conform to EN15194 our bikes must be individually certificated by TUV or SGS etc. As yet there have not been any checks to my knowledge at point of entry into the UK. However this will happen. It's the easiest way to regulate. I sell bikes into Australia, and have had to provide certification. Bikes without the correct certification are often impounded.

We now also have to be WEEE registered. Not many of us have yet, but most are in the process. Registration costs £12,000. EN15194 costs about £3,500 per model. We have 6 models. Within the next year or so anyone providing Ebikes in the the UK will have to conform or risk losing cargo at point of entry. The costs of conforming will drive out smaller businesses, these are the guys that tend to bring in the very high powered bikes.

Speed Pedelecs will eventually be legalised in the UK. As long as they conform to European regs they will continue to come into the UK, until then I believe we will see very little action from the authorities.

I may of course be completely wrong!

All the best David
Great post David, and this really should, hopefully, serve to underline only the caution and warnings myself and others have given, about the prolific use of illegal e-bikes in public and the obvious indifference or complacency that clearly exists among large sections of this forum community over the legality issue and possible further intensive regulation.

I think as an industry man yourself, you're best placed to know how the industry is evolving and what you have posted would seem to suggest we are moving towards a more regulated industry model, and eventually I suspect e-bikes over the legal will be lumped in with electric mopeds else a new lower category will be introduced below AM, and all those e-bikes will be required to be type registered, have plates, and everything else that goes with it, if people keep pushing the boundaries. Well that is the case already, but what I mean is, the government is likely to make it more costly for businesses such as your own (and so more costly for end consumers) to put e-bikes into the marketplace and for owners to ride them. The easiest way to regulate this market, would be the government to introduce a form of compliant test at the point of import and/or presale. That is, all bikes would have to be "type approved" automatically to say "yes that's road legal" or "that falls under type AM, moped, needs licensing". And all e-bikes (even legal ones) would have to display that type complaint sign on them in a very visual and easily trackeable way that makes it impossible for illegal bikes to be on our roads. I can see that being the end outcome if we have a major accident or the government just decides the industry has grown too large and cannot regulate itself.

The industry I think has a key role to play in making sure the marketplace and businesses take a lead in making sure people are a) well informed on what is legal and not legal b) not offering illegal bikes for use on roads, making clear they're illegal and off-road use only unless type registered as motorcycles c) pushing more legal bikes, and trying to keep that section of the market compliant so it appears self-regulation is working well and no direct government intervention over the market is needed.

Now we no longer have the BEBA I'd like to see some industry body emerge which gives badge approval to all businesses in the industry who comply with a simple "good practice charter" and that should really cover a,b,c above. Then it will be easy for consumers to spot what's legal, what's not, and which companies are providing safe, legal products.
 
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