I rode down to Paignton bike show today..... illegal pipes & cans everywhere. Non legal **** pot lids. Loads of non legal sized & lettered number plates.
Also a few speed limits were fractured...... a good day was had by all.
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Also a few speed limits were fractured...... a good day was had by all.
Well said Bob. There is definitely a market for high-powered e-bikes and nobody is suggesting they should be banned or not discussed on this forum.
No doubt there's a lot of interest in those and specialist interest groups, as you suggested, racing and so forth.
I think all Flud and a few others are concerned about is making and keeping a distinction between recreational use high-powered e-bikes, and legal road use.. and basically separating the two...as the at moment the two seemed to have merged into one... and people who are totally new to e-bikes, unaware of the law, see 1000W for sale on this site, and then come here for advice on the forum, then possibly assume oh well thats legal as lots of people ride 1000W...or oh well its not strictly legal, but its not going to matter as they're sold on this main pedelecs discussion site, and there's nothing to say or suggest otherwise.
Is the site misleading consumers and giving the wrong impression? Is it potentially shooting the industry in the foot? There's no guidelines here or separation between recreational off-road bikes, and legal road bikes? It seems to be pretty much a free for all.
Some may argue it's down to individuals to do their own research on the law, and it's easy enough to search on Google. Perhaps so. This is just a discussion on whether the two need to be separated to safeguard the wider industry, or whether we're going to continue mixing illegal and legal bikes together in general e-bike discussion and risk possible regulation further down the line.
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I say no. If they couldn't be bothered to attend to the near 100% illegality for 13 years, why would they act against a tiny minority now?
Pedelecs overall are a tiny issue in the UK, and the illegal use proportion is so vanishingly small, no-one is going to do anything about it.
It's a fantasy to think this has recently reared its head. In the first two years of the forum in 2006 and 2007, 38% of the members rode one very popular 22mph assist model that measured at 1000 watts peak gross. The pedelec world didn't come to an end, instead it moved on and gradually the legal bikes took over the majority position that they've held ever since.
We have over 12,500 members, the vast majority of whom ride legal bikes. Nationally there's probably over 150,000 active e-bikes, almost all of them entirely legal. Illegality has always been a minority enthusiast issue, mainly connected with this forum and Endless Sphere forum.
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Flud has only recently joined, but obviously has an agenda about illegal ebikes and vociferously bangs on and on about it.
It has all the hallmarks of a 'multi', a multi of someone currently on here, or previously was....... makes me wonder who has also had this agenda.
No doubt Flud will deny it...... but a 'multi' would, wouldn't they.
It has all the hallmarks of a 'multi', a multi of someone currently on here, or previously was....... makes me wonder who has also had this agenda.
No doubt Flud will deny it...... but a 'multi' would, wouldn't they.
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Morphix, what's got into you? You yourself, like me, have had your turn riding around on illegal bikes. No argument you make can hold any water when you've done it yourself and published the fact. It comes across very hypocritical when you insist on others not doing it. Let them have their turn. Maybe like us, they'll eventually change their ways.
My answer to that would be this flecc, it's the government! We know them of old.
Here's the scenario a guy gets a hand-gun from a gun-club or smuggled into the UK, and shoots a few cops and it sparks a media storm and the government feels under pressure to act. There's a a white-paper a show of hands in parliament, and suddenly all hand guns are banned instantly. Just like that.
Here's another scenario.. as the e-bike industry is unregulated, lots of e-bikes are coming on the market now much easier than ever before (via Chinese drop-shipping agents operating within the UK and EU) and these bikes are high-powered, 500W and 1000W. The sellers are Chinese and no regard for the EU or UK law. The market has changed significantly. Suddenly you have 1,000's of these high-powered bikes appearing on pavements and on roads..and eventually there's a nasty accident here and there..someone gets killed, and again and there's a media storm..because it was a 1000W "unregistered illegal moped"...and the government "failed to regulate this market". Questions asked in parliament..a committee is put together, a white paper emerges proposing regulation... a show of hands, and overnight, the e-bike industry falls under new DVLA regulation.
It could happen that fast. The reason why I'm particularly concerned about the risk of this is tied to the EU referendum question too. If the UK leaves the EU (and that looks like a distinct possibility) the government will have total freedom to introduce new laws on anything, and will no doubt do a massive overhaul over the coming years of all these areas that have been left unregulated. Industries like e-cigs, legal highs, and e-bikes, that will eventually be EU regulated (a slow process) will be dealt with much more swiftly by Parliament.
The natural health supplements industry and market was left unregulated for decades..but about 10 years ago the EU and UK government suddenly decided it needed regulated and every product had to be licensed and registered. It just happened very fast.
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What's got into me? Concern! Alarm. At how far the market has moved from legal to illegal, and how open people are about it!
I've never rode illegal bikes d8veh! I've only owned 2 both had 250W motors.
You mean riding on throttle only? Yes I'm guilty of that But, that's a grey area, technically yes it's not legal. However since the bike falls into the legal limits, it's hardly a major crime or danger to anyone. From my understanding, BEBA and the government reached an "understanding" at the time, that throttle-only would not be banned and was ok on bikes that met the EU Directive (until the law was fully ratified).
Also just to be clear again.. I'm not "insisting" people don't ride illegal bikes.. I would not be so arrogant and foolish! People will do what they like and are perfectly free to do that.
All I'm saying is, we as the largest e-bike community have to consider the impact that mainstream *clearly* illegal bikes are going to have on are our roads. The risks involved and what that could potentially mean for all of us, as owners, as well as people involved in the industry who's livelihoods depends on e-bikes being cheap and freely available to ride.
All very different cases and much larger and more important too.
As for leaving the EU, I stand by what I posted. To get the necessary trade agreeent we will have to continue with a large tranche of EU laws and regulations, and all transport issues are a part of that. We already have Norway and Switzerland as proof.
This whole issue of illegal use is being blown up out of all proportion. It's a non issue and nothing will happen to curb it that affects the rest of us who ride legally.
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Since you have the numbers to hand, I'm curious to know:
1) How many members of the 12.500 registered would you estimate own and ride an illegal pedelec?
2) Of the 150,000 active e-bikes, you say "most" are legal. What % are not legal?
3) Comparing the market now, to how it was in 2007, how would you say it's changed in terms in sales and brands, particularly over the last 1-2 years?
4) Is it fair to say, high-powered e-bikes are now much much easier to get hold of, and much cheaper, than in 2006-2007? One only has to look at eBay and you can see many sellers of 1000W kits and bikes operating freely in the UK, and these are grey imports from China. A few years ago, that was not something we saw.
Nobody can argue the market has and is changing rapidly. Others have suggested there could be an explosion of e-bike usage in the coming years on the back these changes, Chinese imports emerging in the UK domestic marketplace... so the small % of illegal bikes, could become a much larger % in fairly short period of time from now.
And here lies the problem...
150,000 e-bikes is not a lot of them in a national context. And public knowledge of the legal definition of an e-bike is fairly sketchy and non-existent to anyone outside of this group, if you ask random people in the street (even police officers still astonishingly!), It's this lack of knowledge on the legal side, coupled with lower priced imports and an explosion of sales, and more widespread use of illegal bikes, that poses the risk.
Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree there.
I can see regulation coming on the horizon if things continue as they are now. In a few years from now, if I'm wrong you can tell me how foolish I was to worry! But what if I'm right?
What are these "dongles" I keep hearing about?! lol I've never heard that term in e-bikes before..but I've been out of the loop for a while.
mine slides over the rear speed sensor so can be removed in seconds and bike reset to default others are wired dir in to the motor so you cant even see them bar a small head phone jack to turn it on and off.
some also now use phone apps so show the right speed when fitted but still wired in to the motor.
https://www.badassebikes.com/
http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Tuningartikel/1A_Dongel_incl_Aktiv_Schalter_Kabelsatzkit_Aktive___Performance_artikel52f51a91dc82b.html
some also now use phone apps so show the right speed when fitted but still wired in to the motor.
https://www.badassebikes.com/
http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Tuningartikel/1A_Dongel_incl_Aktiv_Schalter_Kabelsatzkit_Aktive___Performance_artikel52f51a91dc82b.html
Well it's been an interesting and lively debate and no personal insults, so that's good progress!! 
I respect people have very different views and may see me as being alarmist and totally disagree with my own and Flud's view, and perhaps may take the view that somehow, it will be the other way around, ie the government will "bend" to the market... and either relax the e-bike law and/or leave the market unregulated indefinitely. I personally do not see that happening.. but we'll see. Time will tell!
OK well I've said my piece and I'm not going to annoy people and keep banging this drum over this hot potato issue ... let's leave it there..
I respect people have very different views and may see me as being alarmist and totally disagree with my own and Flud's view, and perhaps may take the view that somehow, it will be the other way around, ie the government will "bend" to the market... and either relax the e-bike law and/or leave the market unregulated indefinitely. I personally do not see that happening.. but we'll see. Time will tell!
OK well I've said my piece and I'm not going to annoy people and keep banging this drum over this hot potato issue ... let's leave it there..
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