New London Low Emission Zone

[peter.c]

I agree the barge will not sort out the problems but between dp word and tilbury docks and the planned tilbury 2 port how many thousand lorry journeys per day [one in one out] . It was just ironic to see the old and the new in one place and how few staff work in dp world London everything is gps

The railway runs into both ports but is under utilised

I cannot see what the charge will achieve,[ when the fist c charge started vech numbers went down but within two years went way up] the vehicles still need to deliver the goods and service staff need to visit multiple sites [I tried the steps and tools on the tube once I am now retired ] to travel in to the city by van and park for 8 hours costs the only thing it will do is raise money [tax] wait and see it come to a every city near you soon .

Electric vans are still limited on range and if we all plugged in to the national grid it cannot cope, the cost of new power cables to each street yet alone the disruption for the infrastructure work. I have noticed the met police trail of electric bmw and 11 Toyota hydrogen cars under the mayors zero emission plan the rumour is they have to go mile's out of london to fill up

 

[flecc]

I agree the barge will not sort out the problems but between dp word and tilbury docks and the planned tilbury 2 port how many thousand lorry journeys per day [one in one out] . It was just ironic to see the old and the new in one place and how few staff work in dp world London everything is gps

The railway runs into both ports but is under utilised

I cannot see what the charge will achieve,[ when the fist c charge started vech numbers went down but within two years went way up] the vehicles still need to deliver the goods and service staff need to visit multiple sites [I tried the steps and tools on the tube once I am now retired ] to travel in to the city by van and park for 8 hours costs the only thing it will do is raise money [tax] wait and see it come to a every city near you soon .

Electric vans are still limited on range and if we all plugged in to the national grid it cannot cope, the cost of new power cables to each street yet alone the disruption for the infrastructure work. I have noticed the met police trail of electric bmw and 11 Toyota hydrogen cars under the mayors zero emission plan the rumour is they have to go mile's out of london to fill up

There's a need to keep a sense of perspective and not exaggerate the problems by clutching at every possible but highly unlikely snag. Dealing with the things you raise in order:

So what if the container terminal has few staff, the barges containing many lorry loads are pulled by one tugboat man.

The railway is under utilised because it doesn't go to where the goods are needed, so not worth using for many trips.

Vehicle numbers went up years after the congestion charge was introduced because overall vehicle numbers went up. Without the charge congestion would have been very much worse.

A pollution charge will be effective because it works differently. It's costs make it cheaper to buy a less or non polluting vehicle. For someone who enters the congestion charge zone weekdays now, the new 2018 Nissan Leaf is a free car if they keep it for the 8 year battery warranty life. After deducting holidays, the 220 annual entries at £11.50 a day for eight years adds up to £20,240. Add the government £4500 grant to buy a fully electric car and the total is £24,740. That buys the top of the range model after discounts, and there's still the huge savings of using electricity instead of very expensive petrol or diesel, those adding up to thousands of pounds. So no problems, they can have the electric car completely free and still keep their other one if they sometimes do very long trips over 150 miles.

Yes the electricity grids couldn't cope if we all switched to electric, but that isn't happening is it? We only need to switch a fair proportion of the cars and vans in pollution affected cities. That will happen gradually as our generating capacity rises with planned and currently being built power supply additions.

The Mayor's trial of a tiny number of cars just isn't relevant in the greater scheme of things. And London already has hydrogen filling facilities, its small fleet of Mercedes hydrogen powered buses fill up there.
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[anotherkiwi]

Yes the electricity grids couldn't cope if we all switched to electric, but that isn't happening is it?
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Some countries have too much electricity so they sell it to other countries. You are paying the price of being an island... What we need here then are removable batteries which could be shipped over the channel to be recharged

There was a documentary on your future nuclear power station the other day, Executive summary: EDF have been very naughty...

 

[flecc]

EDF have been very naughty...

Skilfully naughty though!
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[oyster]

Cars 79% of all road traffic covering 310 billion miles.

HGVs 5% of all road traffic covering 16 billion miles.

Yes - cars are dominant. But HGVs produce about 16% of CO2 (against 63% combined for petrol plus diesel cars). So over three times the CO2 that mileage alone would suggest.

 

[flecc]

Yes - cars are dominant. But HGVs produce about 16% of CO2 (against 63% combined for petrol plus diesel cars). So over three times the CO2 that mileage alone would suggest.

But still by far the lesser amount. And this is without mentioning Nitrogen dioxide and particulates and you've left out van CO2. And I'd remind once again that the bulk of the large truck mileage isn't in the polluted cities where the damage is being done.

Dealing with trucks can't and won't solve the pollution problems, dealing with cars and vans which create the great bulk of the pollution and have a far greater range of solutions will.
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[oyster]

Some countries have too much electricity so they sell it to other countries. You are paying the price of being an island... What we need here then are removable batteries which could be shipped over the channel to be recharged

If we have to buy our electricity from foreign countries (whether down a wire or in humungous batteries ) we are not sovereign and in charge of our destiny.

If one of the countries we import from gets sleighted by one of our politicians, maybe a foreign secretary who lacks tact?, then they could pull the plug and leave us without.

If we were relying on the French interconnect, but Germany has a major supply disaster, would France be more likely to continue supplying the sovereign non-EU UK, or redirect it to EU-partner Germany?

 

[oyster]

But still by far the lesser amount. And this is without mentioning Nitrogen dioxide and particulates and you've left out van CO2. And I'd remind once again that the bulk of the large truck mileage isn't in the polluted cities where the damage is being done.

Dealing with trucks can't and won't solve the pollution problems, dealing with cars and vans which create the great bulk of the pollution and have a far greater range of solutions will.
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However, if truckers are cheating...

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/british-lorry-operators-found-cheating-diesel-emissions/

Then who knows?

 

[flecc]

However, if truckers are cheating...

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/british-lorry-operators-found-cheating-diesel-emissions/

Then who knows?

I knew about that and the authorities are cracking down.

However, once again, even if they didn't trucks are not the problem, why can't you see that? 86% of the UK population with their cars and vans live in towns and cities and that is where the pollution hotspots are that greatly exceed limits, creating ill health and death. The large trucking mileages and their pollution are the reverse, the great majority far outside of the urban areas. So they are not the problem, QED.
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[peter.c]

The main point of this charge is not to cut the essential journeys, but to apply another revenue stream for TfL. when it comes out to the m25 as the next consultation suggests that's going to be a lot of peoples cars that live within that will have to pay every day
Every road into London already has the monitoring cameras installed even the country lanes near here have them as soon as you cross into greater London .
When they finally work out that euro 4 petrol engines are not as clean on the nox levels as they think they will rejig the rules to suit .Nearly all the Hgv I see locally meet the new rules and have the TfL stickers
They now want vans and cars to comply transport is an easy target with a reasonably quick result they have to be seen to be doing something about this now but don't seem to have a long term strategy .
Most of the problem is the stationary traffic ques the average speed in London is not much past horse and cart pace at times and the 20 speed limit is in most areas
They even have civil enforcement in Islington to turn the engine off when in a que at the lights
In a recent study Thurrock air quality was among the worst in the whole country I bet that reading was taken when the m25 was at a standstill when the traffic moves freely the readings are much lower

 

[flecc]

The main point of this charge is not to cut the essential journeys, but to apply another revenue stream for TfL. when it comes out to the m25 as the next consultation suggests that's going to be a lot of peoples cars that live within that will have to pay every day

It's true that the Congestion Zone charge has become as much about revenue as restriction, but that hasn't been the discussion subject. That's the pollution control zones and they are about reducing the pollution which is not only a big problem in many areas but could also land the UK large fines.

The infrastructure is nowhere near as complete as you think. To bring the pollution control zones out to the North and South Circulars needs the whole infrastructure to be installed, hence the 2021 start for the scheme. The outer cameras you see are only for monitoring, they don't integrate with a full charging zone control system.

You'll never see an everything within M25 pollution charging zone, there's no point since much of the area within is countryside with no serious pollution problem. What is much more likely in cities is alternate day use control of cars like that in some other countries, cheap to implement, self policing and very effective.

As I keep saying, deal with the vast numbers of cars and the pollution and congestion problems are solved. And I'm saying this as a car driver.
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[mike killay]

To me it seems that there is a bullet that has to be bitten in the cities.
The sooner that we do so, the sooner that the necessary electricity generation schemes will be implemented.
Hopefully, further progress will be made to improve electric vehicles.
Although Tesla and others have produced high performance cars at great cost, there is no reason why a cheap 20 mph light car could not be produced for city use.
I envisage a lightweight, 4 wheeled, plastic bodied, short (8 foot long) but tall vehicle which would not have any of the modern luxuries but be more akin to an electric velomobile. Possibly a rather square shape that would enable it to be stacked one upon another to reduce parking problems.

 

[anotherkiwi]

To me it seems that there is a bullet that has to be bitten in the cities.
The sooner that we do so, the sooner that the necessary electricity generation schemes will be implemented.
Hopefully, further progress will be made to improve electric vehicles.
Although Tesla and others have produced high performance cars at great cost, there is no reason why a cheap 20 mph light car could not be produced for city use.
I envisage a lightweight, 4 wheeled, plastic bodied, short (8 foot long) but tall vehicle which would not have any of the modern luxuries but be more akin to an electric velomobile. Possibly a rather square shape that would enable it to be stacked one upon another to reduce parking problems.

There are already a few available and many more in the pipeline, the most promising one for the UK market coming from Norway. https://www.podbike.com/

Impossible to use where I live because of the glazed surface.

Canada https://www.velometro.com/veemo/ and of course the Elf.

 

[flecc]

Possibly a rather square shape that would enable it to be stacked one upon another to reduce parking problems.

I wouldn't worry about that, some of today's drivers will stack them anyway, albeit unintentionally.
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[mike killay]

My idea is something like a mini but without the bonnet and engine because each wheel would have a motor. This would allow 4 reasonable seats, sensible weather protection unlike that photo of an all transparent roof.
Before the first world war there was a vogue for what they called cycle cars and light cars. Many weird and wonderful things were produced, only to be swept aside by the Austin 7.
That was because people wanted what they saw as a 'real' car.
Now the boot is on the other foot.
If politicians show sense (some hope) a true light, small car could be given road excise licence concessions, cheap or free parking and perhaps some sort of government insurance scheme to encourage young users.
Travelling at a maximum of 20 mph would not be a burden in cities.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Twizy for two people. Two Twizys for 4 people...

 

[flecc]

Twizy for two people. Two Twizys for 4 people...

I like the Twizy, but not in the English winter climate.
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[Zlatan]

Manufacturers are loathed to build something along lines of been discussed... It might impact on car sales and petrol consumed. For years cars have got bigger and bigger, heavier and heavier and full of more stuff we don't need. Why sell a cheap light economical car when they can sell you above a ton of material.????
There is massive inertia in our auto suppliers system.
A car could be built easily down to a weight of 400kg...capable of carrying 4 people and adequate performance along with high economy. Modern small capacity engines (as used in quads) would easily do the job... but nobody would buy it...

 

[oyster]

I knew about that and the authorities are cracking down.

However, once again, even if they didn't trucks are not the problem, why can't you see that? 86% of the UK population with their cars and vans live in towns and cities and that is where the pollution hotspots are that greatly exceed limits, creating ill health and death. The large trucking mileages and their pollution are the reverse, the great majority far outside of the urban areas. So they are not the problem, QED.
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As I see things, just because they are not the largest part of the problem doesn't seem to make them not a problem. I assume when you say they are not a problem, that includes the things like refrigeration units which often also run on diesel and produce their contributions?

 

[anotherkiwi]

Well a Morris Traveller wouldn't help clean things up now would it?

I love the sticker "My other car is a septic tank"!