New bikes from eZee / 50Cycles

[flecc]

That's true Ian, but it's not a production bike of course. Nothing on Chinese tyres I could perhaps have said, since all their e-bikes can be hugely improved merely by changing to appropriate Western products.

Only Bridgestone in the Orient seem to have mastered the black art of tyre manufacture. (Not a pun, tyres can be any colour, and I can remember them in several colours in the past.)

 

[Ian]

Unfortunately Flecc it has been raining ever since I fitted those nice German tyres to mine, the one longish ride I did on them gave a very favorable impression but the weather has confined me indoors since.

The alarm arrived on Saturday and is now fitted discreetly under the saddle. It certainly seems to work well enough, I've touched the bike a few times and was warned by a loud "chirp".

 

[flecc]

That's great about the alarm Ian, I hope a few more buy one and confound the thieves more effectively.

As you say, the weather has been the pits, though I managed a shopping trip and third alarm use today as it was a bit drier, though it's forecast wet again for here tomorrow.

It's given me the chance to spend some thinking time on the next project though, and a short successful jury-rigged trial of one idea towards that.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Hubs and Cassettes

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum, but have known Russ for a long time. I'll be helping him to keep Pedelecs.co.uk moving forwards.

Last week we visited 50Cycles for a sneak preview and ride on the eZee Forza. I was very impressed, but admit to little knowledge of its competition so far. Today they have launched the Forza and its sibling, the Forte.

You can take a look at our sneak peak here - http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/articles/51/1/A-look-at-the-new-ForzaForte-electric-bikes-from-50Cycles/Page1.html

I look forward to meeting some of you at Presteigne in two weeks time.

Richard

Where did all those sprocket teeth come from on the Nexus Inter 8 Hub on the Forte?
Peter

 

[RichardB]

re: Hubs and Cassettes



Peter,

Not sure what you mean, perhaps you could expand the question and someone with more knowledge than me will no doubt respond.

regards
Richard

 

[flecc]

Peter is referring to this, the T referring to teeth of sprockets it seems:

Item Peter is referring to but not quoted: The Forte will be available in a Silver finish and comes with a Shimano Nexus Inter 8 hub (12, 14, 16, 20, 24, 27, 31, 38T - 307% range).

Hub gears don't have sprocket sets like this of course, their gears are usually expressed as gear inches or as percentages relating to one end or the other of the range. Gear inches are preferable. There are also some other systems, like those using metric measure.

If these are an accurate representation of the Forte's gearing, I can deduce the gear inches given the chainwheel's number of teeth. That isn't shown on the website, but since it's listed as 170 mm, that would have 42 teeth.

This leaves the gear inches corresponding to those tooth numbers as follows:

27, 34, 39, 44, 53, 66, 75, 88.

Added note: Having looked at the gear inches on the Forza, I'm fairly certain that the above calculated gear inches are very close to correct for the Forte.

Heres Shimano's ratios for the Nexus 8:

Total:307%

1: 0.527
2: 0.644
3: 0.748
4: 0.851
5: 1.000
6: 1.223
7: 1.419
8: 1.615

If 50cycles can specify the rear sprocket's number of teeth and confirm the chainwheel as a 42 tooth, I can easily verify the definite gear inches.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Gear Inches

Peter is referring to this, the T referring to teeth of sprockets it seems:



Hub gears don't have sprocket sets like this of course, their gears are usually expressed as gear inches or as percentages relating to one end or the other of the range. Gear inches are preferable. There are also some other systems, like those using metric measure.

If these are an accurate representation of the Forte's gearing, I can deduce the gear inches given the chainwheel's number of teeth. That isn't shown on the website, but since it's listed as 170 mm, that would have 42 teeth.

This leaves the gear inches corresponding to those tooth numbers as follows:

27, 34, 39, 44, 53, 66, 75, 88.

Added note: Having looked at the gear inches on the Forza, I'm fairly certain that the above calculated gear inches are very close to correct for the Forte.

Heres Shimano's ratios for the Nexus 8:

Total:307%

1: 0.527
2: 0.644
3: 0.748
4: 0.851
5: 1.000
6: 1.223
7: 1.419
8: 1.615

If 50cycles can specify the rear sprocket's number of teeth and confirm the chainwheel as a 42 tooth, I can easily verify the definite gear inches.
.

That's exactly what the specification of the Forte should show calculated in gear inches.

You are quite right to ask for the number of teeth in the chain wheel and rear sprocket. If I had that information I could have done the calculation with the help of Mr. Sheldon Brown.
Sheldon Brown's Internal Gear Calculator
with a 42 x 18 set up the gear inches would be from 32 to 98
The wheel size I took to be 26 nominal

Thanks Flecc.
Peter

 

[coops]

f-series gear ratios

If 50cycles can specify the rear sprocket's number of teeth and confirm the chainwheel as a 42 tooth, I can easily verify the definite gear inches.

From the f-series gallery hi-res images the bikes are 50T front chainwheel and forte appears to have a 20T rear sprocket, (production bikes may have 48T it seems, 4% lower gears) so

forte gears:

50T:
1: 34.255"
2: 41.86"
3: 48.62"
4: 55.315"
5: 65"
6: 79.5"
7: 92.235"
8: 104.975"

48T:

1: 32.88"
2: 40.186"
3: 46.675"
4: 53.102"
5: 62.4"
6: 76.315"
7: 88.546"
8: 100.776"

307% range as stated.

The forza has 50T(or poss 48T) & 11-13-15-17-21-25-29-33T derailleur and gears of:

50T:
1: 39.4"
2: 44.83"
3: 52"
4: 61.9"
5: 76.47"
6: 86.66"
7: 100"
8: 118.182"

48T:
1: 37.82"
2: 43"
3: 49.9"
4: 59.43"
5: 73.41"
6: 83.2"
7: 96"
8: 113.455"

300% range.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

The production bikes seem they might be a bit different Stuart.

A to B give the Forte as 33" to 101", and the Forza as 38" to 113".

Makes the latter like the Torq's seventh and next to top gear, sounds about right.
.

 

[coops]

Looks like 48T front chainwheel then: I might have miscounted, but they could have changed it for production from what's shown in those pics .

Difference is 4% lower on each gear for each bike .

I'll check my counting & edit my post to show both possibilities if necessary .

 

[flecc]

Chainring easily changed on those anyway, unlike the Quando which just has a pressed steel chainwheel, no spider.
.

 

[coops]

These are currently my main questions/thoughts re forza:
(Any comments are welcome).

1. Has the brake judder problem which seems to occur on some ezee bikes, not all, been resolved, and if not can we say how likely is the forza to be affected?

I think there are many reasons acting in combinations why this can occur on these bikes, front wheel motor weight, two cross spoke wheel builds, tolerances, rim variations, brake arm suppleness, soft action brake arms etc. On some like my Torq, there's no combination acting to cause a problem. On some like my Quando, there's a single clearly identifiable cause, in that case a poor rim section join which is wider at that part so rhythmically snatching once per rotation, though that's easing as the rim wears level. But on many I think it's a combination of two or more unhappy coincidences interacting, hence the difficulty in effecting a complete cure in every case.

2. I'm reluctant to go with another front fork motor, but at least has suspension, also good weight distribution & gearing pluses over rear motors... (gear range is good, and gear spacing should make it v rideable w'out power, though lots of shifting likely with power, esp. delimited...).

3. Brakes again: I've never used disc brakes, so I don't know how well they stop, but I don't see any rear V-brake mounting on the f-series frame as an alternative and if so is it disc or nothing? Is that a cause for concern, or not?
I rather like the simplicity of V-brakes myself .

My Torq came with a "shimano power modulator" SM-PM60 and nexave brakes, and I've adjusted the headset, checked wheel rim, spokes, pads etc. but the judder persists. I'm sure in some, or all cases the cause can be pinned down and resolved, but lack of a single cause makes that more challenging and I suppose the best way is to try to reduce or remove all the possible contributory factors during production.

Stuart.

 

[hobo1]

Hi Coops.

I can't answer your questions technically, but I can have a go through self observation.

1. I have had no brake judder at all with the Forza. I did all the things you have done to Torq to stop judder & it was improved significantly.

2. Rides well W'out power; again better than Torq. I have not noticed excessive gear shifting even when de-regulated: infact it has very good torque indeed. Up those hills like ???? off a shovel!

3. I find the brakes very good, sorry to say it again; better than Torq. Though I would have prefered both front and back hydraulic. makes more even on application.

Hope this helps. Cheers David.

 

[coops]

Thanks for the feedback David, much appreciated!

The fact you've owned a Torq is helpful for comparison in a way.

I'm glad you've had no judder on the forza & you reduced it on your Torq too; I hope the forza's case is an indication the problem is "under control", though it never did affect all bikes, so a bit early days there... or until we get more definite information on that.

Yes, higher torque will mean less downshift on hills, a good point thanks (hill climbing ability nicely put, by the way ).

re brakes, I guess the disc brake would be stronger than the torq's rear roller brake, the maintainance it may need is a bit of an issue for me though: is there definitely no unused fixture for rear V-brakes on the forza as there is on the Torq (rear chainstay for torq)? Its a shame if not...

Thanks again David.

Stuart.

 

[hobo1]

Unfortunately Stuart there is no unused fixture for rear V-brake. The Torq comes out on top this time

Cheers, David.

 

[flecc]

The rear V brake fixture on the torq only exists because the prototype had that fitted. The extreme proximity of the cable exit to the chainwheel of a rear V brake probably caused the change to the roller brake, but I cracked the cable exit problem by using a front brake on the rear with the T bike.

Simple.
.

 

[JohnInStockie]

A to B review of the Forte

Just finished reading the review of the Forte by A to B. The review wasnt as flattering as I expected.

It sounds like the pedelec mode of the bike is a flaw that doesnt work, with power continuing after pedaling had stopped, and some sort of 'old thermostat' rig to try and fix it. I take it that the pedalec mode must only be classified as a cursory 'nod' in the direction if europe then.

I know many do not like pedelec, but some of us do....

John

 

[flecc]

This is a widespread problem John. Hub motors in general have rather poor pdelec implementation. Some have a torque sensor to regulate the rate of power delivery to the rider input, but many don't like the odd flexing feel that gives to pedalling. Others have the full power pedelec that eZee use, with the throttle also active so leaving it for the rider to regulate the power level.

These are the reasons many don't like pedelec, and I'm not sure you would either with these systems after your Twist. A least with eZee the option is switchable, pedelec or throttle only, plus the assistance level control on the Forte.

The complete detachment of a hub motor from the pedalling system is bound to produce a somewhat Heath Robinson character to any pedelec system possible.
.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Really, its sounds like a bit of a nightmare then for the designers! It makes me wonder what will happen then with A to B reporting that the post office legal teams are pushing the DfT for clarity on the law regarding power ratings and implimentation in the UK!!!

What will it be I wonder?

 

[flecc]

That's what concerns me too John. It's absolutely certain to be the enforcement of the European regulations, meaning pedelec only, though I think throttles are permitted in conjunction with that.

There's absolutely no chance of the UK law remaining in force, we only have it because the civil service failed to arrange for it to be removed when the mandatory European regulation came into force.

So these same poor pedelec systems we'll be stuck with. I think it will damage sales for a while, setting back the movement, since people with throttle only bikes will hang onto them to the death and stop upgrading. Kits might do better though, since they can usually be illegally implemented quite easily.
.