è Napoli Leonardo? Almeno non dovete arrestarsi ai semafori! 
Is it Naples Leonardo? At least you don't have to stop at traffic lights!
Is it Naples Leonardo? At least you don't have to stop at traffic lights!
New bikes from eZee / 50Cycles
- Thread starter RichardB
- Start date
Hi nigel: yes, something I like very much of my Lafree is that it is light and easy to move if you have to find a better spot in traffic!
coops, I've started the poll on my forum! In few days we shall see that in Italy there not so many crank drive motors (some Flyer, yes, and some Microbike with the odd crank motor I did show you on the the other thread, and a few Aprilia... I'm the only one having a Giant): most people drive hub motors: Frisbee, which I don't like but it is not as bad as a lot of cheap chinese things... The main problem of the latter is that they often disappoint people and widespread the opinion that electric bikes are almost useless. One our goals is to struggle for a quality conscious choice.
coops, I've started the poll on my forum! In few days we shall see that in Italy there not so many crank drive motors (some Flyer, yes, and some Microbike with the odd crank motor I did show you on the the other thread, and a few Aprilia... I'm the only one having a Giant): most people drive hub motors: Frisbee, which I don't like but it is not as bad as a lot of cheap chinese things... The main problem of the latter is that they often disappoint people and widespread the opinion that electric bikes are almost useless. One our goals is to struggle for a quality conscious choice.
Yes, they are very similar to powabike. They say it is an Italian product, but my feeling is that they are mostly Chinese with some attention to engeneering. They have now brushless motors 250W with a peak (estimated) around 500: powerful motors and a good range with the SLA battery giving more than 50 km (but some users managed to achieve till 80-100: please remember that in my country the pedelec is the only use allowed). But they are heavy (37 kg) and with that "motocycle look"... Now they are beginning with the Litium, but we have no reliable data about performance, range and lifetime till now. Another problem is that there is often some "fantasy" in what they say: for instance here is a video on the Alps - a good performance I think... but the altitude difference is 1000m less than what they say!
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Yes, here powabyke are starting to use lithium too, also aluminium frames (they say are 4kg lighter) on certain models. Its been said here peak power is around 500-700W, though brushed motors are used and rated power 200W, range is similar to the Frisbee on SLA batteries and with older (steel?) frames are similarly heavy! we also have no data (that I know of) yet on new, lighter frame & lithium battery package.
we also have no data (that I know of) yet on new, lighter frame & lithium battery package.
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Too fast?
These new models from Ezee certainly look impressive, especially the hill climbing potential as a 16% gradient is pretty much the norm for my journeys which are mainly off-road on the designated cycle routes in the Forest of Dean.
I was wondering though, whether 22mph off-road was really such a good idea? Some extra torque would be handy at times, but there's this reservation, knowing that what's generally a pleasant family trail is now and then marred a little by the more boisterous cyclist making those with children a little nervous.
To me, acknowledging that legislation exists and that it's a rider responsibility rather than the manufacturer's , the speed boost would be better applied on the road wouldn't it? Otherwise we might find e-bikes being barred from public off-road tracks in the interest of safety, as are bikes powered by internal combustion engines.
Jeff
These new models from Ezee certainly look impressive, especially the hill climbing potential as a 16% gradient is pretty much the norm for my journeys which are mainly off-road on the designated cycle routes in the Forest of Dean.
I was wondering though, whether 22mph off-road was really such a good idea? Some extra torque would be handy at times, but there's this reservation, knowing that what's generally a pleasant family trail is now and then marred a little by the more boisterous cyclist making those with children a little nervous.
To me, acknowledging that legislation exists and that it's a rider responsibility rather than the manufacturer's , the speed boost would be better applied on the road wouldn't it? Otherwise we might find e-bikes being barred from public off-road tracks in the interest of safety, as are bikes powered by internal combustion engines.
Jeff
I have used the off-road paths on my commute, and the only people I had to watch for are the MTBers. They wizzed past me on normal MTBs at truly brakeneck speeds, I actually stopped and got out of their way as if there had of been a crash, at least they were wearing body armour - I wasnt.
I think its all down to the rider and their sense of responsibility, or lack of it.
John
I think its all down to the rider and their sense of responsibility, or lack of it.
John
I tend to agree with you Jeff, and on the MTB poiunt with John. The speed of cyclists on shared use paths of all types is one of the chief sources of pedestrian anger against cyclists.
I also think like you that torque for hill climbing is much more important than an extra bit of speed on e-bikes.
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I also think like you that torque for hill climbing is much more important than an extra bit of speed on e-bikes.
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Too fast?
Hi Flecc and Jeff I agree with you both.
I also feel that if if we are seen to flout the law, the privileged position we hold as pedelecs riders, i.e. not having to insure, tax, register or mot our bikes could be looked at very seriously.
In my opinion the problem is that we tend to judge ebikes by their top speed as well as their hill climbing capabilities, comfort, "cycle-ability" and range. The maximum legal speed for pedelecs is 25km/h or 15.5mph and as 99% of pedelecs can do that comfortably speed should not be a consideration.
We should not loose sight of the fact that a pedelec is a cycle with the ability to be ridden with the assistance of an electric motor and not a powered bike that one can pedel in an emergency.
We at Wisper have noticed that the "turbo" or "off road" de-restricted mode is requested frequently, and as a manufacturer it is hard to ignore the requests of potential customers. To this end even we are considering adding the facility to our 905e. However, would it not be a good idea if we in the industry got together to either see if the law could be changed or alternatively come to a common agreement not to enable our vehicles to break it?
I for one would be inclined to support the later.
If a manufacturer then wanted to produce a "super e-bike" capable of higher speeds than currently legal then why not do it? But the vehicle should be expected to meet all the legal and safety requirements of a moped. Maybe there is a good market here that no one has considered?
Hi Flecc and Jeff I agree with you both.
I also feel that if if we are seen to flout the law, the privileged position we hold as pedelecs riders, i.e. not having to insure, tax, register or mot our bikes could be looked at very seriously.
In my opinion the problem is that we tend to judge ebikes by their top speed as well as their hill climbing capabilities, comfort, "cycle-ability" and range. The maximum legal speed for pedelecs is 25km/h or 15.5mph and as 99% of pedelecs can do that comfortably speed should not be a consideration.
We should not loose sight of the fact that a pedelec is a cycle with the ability to be ridden with the assistance of an electric motor and not a powered bike that one can pedel in an emergency.
We at Wisper have noticed that the "turbo" or "off road" de-restricted mode is requested frequently, and as a manufacturer it is hard to ignore the requests of potential customers. To this end even we are considering adding the facility to our 905e. However, would it not be a good idea if we in the industry got together to either see if the law could be changed or alternatively come to a common agreement not to enable our vehicles to break it?
I for one would be inclined to support the later.
If a manufacturer then wanted to produce a "super e-bike" capable of higher speeds than currently legal then why not do it? But the vehicle should be expected to meet all the legal and safety requirements of a moped. Maybe there is a good market here that no one has considered?
I think I see slightly differently. The issue is not the speed of the e-bike, the issue is riding responsibly. Have you never seen cyclists on normal bikes going faster than 15mph? Of course they do, but its when they are doing it off-road or rather on a pavement with pedestrians that its an issue.
This is about riding responsibly, you could make an e-bike that could do 25mph if you wanted too, but I wouldnt go at that speed anywhere that pedestrians are (which means I personally would go at that speed where pedestrians are not). I dont even do the 'legal' 15mph when passing pedestrians on ashared path, I tend to drop down to about 9mph.
The fastest I have gotten my Twist upto on road is 25mph (downhill) and that felt very safe to me. So what I struggle to understand, is why that speed restriction 'on road' even exists, after all isnt this supposed to be about green transportation, shouldnt it be encouraged?
Maybe manufacturers should get together and ask for the on-road speed to be raised. Then you will get more people like me - people who have given up the car for the bike - coming to your side.
This is about riding responsibly, you could make an e-bike that could do 25mph if you wanted too, but I wouldnt go at that speed anywhere that pedestrians are (which means I personally would go at that speed where pedestrians are not). I dont even do the 'legal' 15mph when passing pedestrians on ashared path, I tend to drop down to about 9mph.
The fastest I have gotten my Twist upto on road is 25mph (downhill) and that felt very safe to me. So what I struggle to understand, is why that speed restriction 'on road' even exists, after all isnt this supposed to be about green transportation, shouldnt it be encouraged?
Maybe manufacturers should get together and ask for the on-road speed to be raised. Then you will get more people like me - people who have given up the car for the bike - coming to your side.
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Another way to look at this is that bikes fitted with off-road capabilities are still supplied complying with the law.
A key factor in their performance is that the motors still fall within the 250W euro limit. So therefore I really don't see that top speeds will increase much further than what we are seeing now (22mph 'ish on the flat with little headwind)
So there really isn't much else to play with unless more powerful motors are introduced (unlikely). Perhaps weight can be reduced further but this will obviously bump up the price considerably if moving to much lighter frames, and I don't see any major weight reduction in li-ions in the near future.
It's a difficult argument as both sides are equally valid.
cheers
Russ
A key factor in their performance is that the motors still fall within the 250W euro limit. So therefore I really don't see that top speeds will increase much further than what we are seeing now (22mph 'ish on the flat with little headwind)
So there really isn't much else to play with unless more powerful motors are introduced (unlikely). Perhaps weight can be reduced further but this will obviously bump up the price considerably if moving to much lighter frames, and I don't see any major weight reduction in li-ions in the near future.
It's a difficult argument as both sides are equally valid.
cheers
Russ
john
i agree with wispers sentiment that we are in a privilege situation by being allowed to ride ebikes with little hindrance from government,i for one do not want to get into third-party insurance and MOTs (we wouldn't pay road tax because of the nature of our machines) just because the current speed limit is not high enough for some people.
my answer would be stick to the law campaign for change and if it doesn't happen move up to an electric scooter, my worry has always been since reading certain posts on this forum that the few may spoil it for the majority.
sorry john but i felt the need to put the other side of the argument.
mike
i must admit i don't see how this speed was arrived at, but it was its the law and at the end of the day we should not break laws just because we don't agree with them.
i agree with wispers sentiment that we are in a privilege situation by being allowed to ride ebikes with little hindrance from government,i for one do not want to get into third-party insurance and MOTs (we wouldn't pay road tax because of the nature of our machines) just because the current speed limit is not high enough for some people.
my answer would be stick to the law campaign for change and if it doesn't happen move up to an electric scooter, my worry has always been since reading certain posts on this forum that the few may spoil it for the majority.
sorry john but i felt the need to put the other side of the argument.
mike
I agree with John. It's rider behaviour which is the key, since bikes can easily be ridden recklessly whether electrically assisted or not.
A 15 mph speed limit is pointless when ordinary bikes can be ridden at well over 20 mph and cycling clubs have amateur road events where average speeds exceed that. All that's necessary is power limiting, leaving designers to make the best of that. Then from time to time that power limit can be adjusted to keep pace with technical advances as has happened with various motor vehicles in the past.
The subject of e-bikes and the law is a worldwide mess.
Switzerland and now Germany have introduced a 20 mph e-bike class, each having one or two additional rules, but in neither case are they treated as motor vehicles. Under European law we are entitled to any benefit enjoyed by any other European nation like Germany, but can only exercise that right by our government bringing in the equivalent class and insurance legislation, which they won't do, making a mockery of that European law. There is realistically no chance of such a class coming to Britain, given the obsessively protective culture here now.
In Japan e-bikes are power limited on a 1/1 basis, the assist power not allowed to exceed the rider input.
In Canada, legislation is on an area by area basis, hence Ottawa only recently getting e-bikes allowed at all.
In the USA the speed is 20 mph and a 400 watt limit, in Britain 200 or 250 watts according to how many wheels are on the bike (!) and in mainland Europe 250 watts via pedelec only.
And then there's the nonsense that allows any child of any age to ride a bike at any speed on any road except a motorway, but they can't ride an e-bike limited to 15 mph until they are 14 years old.
Rounding this off, it's a long honoured principle in our law that legal vehicle use is the responsibilty of the user, not the manufacturer or importer, and I think that should remain so.
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A 15 mph speed limit is pointless when ordinary bikes can be ridden at well over 20 mph and cycling clubs have amateur road events where average speeds exceed that. All that's necessary is power limiting, leaving designers to make the best of that. Then from time to time that power limit can be adjusted to keep pace with technical advances as has happened with various motor vehicles in the past.
The subject of e-bikes and the law is a worldwide mess.
Switzerland and now Germany have introduced a 20 mph e-bike class, each having one or two additional rules, but in neither case are they treated as motor vehicles. Under European law we are entitled to any benefit enjoyed by any other European nation like Germany, but can only exercise that right by our government bringing in the equivalent class and insurance legislation, which they won't do, making a mockery of that European law. There is realistically no chance of such a class coming to Britain, given the obsessively protective culture here now.
In Japan e-bikes are power limited on a 1/1 basis, the assist power not allowed to exceed the rider input.
In Canada, legislation is on an area by area basis, hence Ottawa only recently getting e-bikes allowed at all.
In the USA the speed is 20 mph and a 400 watt limit, in Britain 200 or 250 watts according to how many wheels are on the bike (!) and in mainland Europe 250 watts via pedelec only.
And then there's the nonsense that allows any child of any age to ride a bike at any speed on any road except a motorway, but they can't ride an e-bike limited to 15 mph until they are 14 years old.
Rounding this off, it's a long honoured principle in our law that legal vehicle use is the responsibilty of the user, not the manufacturer or importer, and I think that should remain so.
.
To me, what David has stated sums up the whole essence of e-biking. I regard my bike as being able to help me when the going gets tough, not vice versa, which is probably why I get range figures that others find hard to believe.
I regard the current legislation as being fair and correct. It ensures that e-bikes cannot out-perform conventional cycles in most situations and can therefore be safely classed as normal bicycles and given the same privileges and restrictions, which to me is a major consideration. The legislation serves to form a clear demarkation between pedalecs and sub 50cc mopeds (which includes some electrics). It is perfectly legal to use a more powerful/faster machine in the UK as long as the relevant legislation is complied with, in the absence of type approval this will mean obtaining a single vehicle approval plus tax (zero rated for an EV), insurance etc.
And finally before anyone calls me a hypocrite , yes I have been known to use my bike unrestricted, simply because it goes up some hills a lot better that way.
No problems at all Mike, this is allegedly a democracy (even though we have career politicians).
What I would add though about sticking to the law, how often do cars go over the limit. I know roads where I live where if your doing the speed limit or less then you will be on your own (with a huge trail of traffic behind you).
I bear this in mind when I consider the e-bike speed limit, and the fact that by using e-bikes, we are reducing congestion, saving resources, and being good to the environment. As a car driver, I dont care less about the speed of the cycle next to me, so long as its not going faster than me, I would prefer it if they were going at a similar pace though so that they are easier to overtake.
If it was ever contempated in law that registration, MOT and insurance would be required, then How and Who could do that? We dont even have a good enough infrastructure to know how many cycles are being sold in the UK!!
It would be the end of e-bikes in the UK, shortly followed by a european court case that would repeal the law as a human rights abuse or something Im sure.
Your right of course in that what we need is the European law changing to 20mph, then we would be in a better position. So I'll make the badges, who's doing the T-shirts??
You see the problem though Ian, which you've neatly illustrated above in those two statements. The power necessary to meet sentence one varies wildly with rider ability. It's going to be very different for my 71 years and that for a much younger fit rider.
I've today received a lengthy email attacking me for saying in my site that the Twist is well suited for towing due to it's drive through gears facility. The writer apparently bought a Twist for solo use on the strength of that, and finds it desperately underpowered for his use, since he has some disability.
Likewise Peter in this site has complained at length about the same bike you use since he has been unable to climb even the most moderate slope with it, and has now sold it.
That's why I say manufacturers and importers should be left free to supply as at present, since that's the only way everyone can be suited according to their need. If that's more restricted, it will be the end of e-bikes as a viable alternative across the population, since already under the present situation most bikes aren't capable of meeting all needs.
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I understand your view here. I think this might be a personal thing to each as mine is slightly different. I approached electric bikes from a different set of priorities you see. For me :-
#1 I must get to work in a state fit for office work (no choice in this one).
#2 I dont want to use the car as the car is polluting, and there's just too many on the road.
#3 I want to save money.
#4 I want to get fitter.
With this order of priorities, I looked at public transport, electric cars, bio-fuels, motor bikes, mopeds, normal bikes and e-bikes (my gardens small so I excluded horses).
Only e-bikes could achieve all of the requirements, and I have a Twist thats far too good at going up hills, but just isnt fast enough for me (I am always being overtaken by other cyclists!!!). Just because I am not as fit as the person on the other bike, shouldnt mean I am legally not allowed to go as fast as they can on the road, after all, I am leaving the car at home and trying to contribute to a better society.
The laws we have regarding electric bikes are out of date. If government want to reduce congestion, reduce pollution, and reduce obesity they should be encouraging e-bikes not tolerating them.
So for me, the e-bike isnt an assisted cycle, its a green replacement for the car on the daily commute, a realistic mode of transport equal to the car (funnily enough this is the same discussion I have with people at work when they accuse me of cheating
.John
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