Most efficient travel

[WheezyRider]

Let's not make up figures. The 2021 census showed 20.7% of households did not have a car, halving your quoted top number. At that time there were 12 cars for every 10 households in Great Britain.
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I'm not making up figures. I have seen numbers between 30 to 40%, depending where you are in the country. It is not always easy to get clear cut numbers - does it mean ownership, or just have access to a car? These fine details are important and often not clarified. I had not seen the Census figures for the entire country, but this shows that there is huge disparity depending on where you are. Also, even if it is more than a fifth, that's still a lot of people!

 

[WheezyRider]

You can say that again. Yesterday as I walked the length of supermarket car park against a biting icy wind I was damn glad to get into my nice warm car to go the five miles home. Even more so when it started to pour with rain half way. And that's from someone who has cycled most of his long life.

But I'm a realist who recognises how overwhelmingly attractive car ownership is, compared to the alternatives of cycling and public transport. That's why people still struggle to own a car, no matter what the cost. That's why I always owned a car in parallel with my cycling, even when the car was doing very few miles each year. That's why 74% of all over 17 year olds have a full driving licence and the majority of the rest have a provisional licence, over 9 million held currently with long waiting list for driving tests.
.

I agree. I used to think nothing of riding 80 miles in a day. As soon as I was 17 I got a licence, had a car by the time I was 18 and then almost totally stopped cycling. I took up cycling again later at various times but didn't really get serious with it until about 10 years ago. The problem is, the car might be the warm cosy option, but it's not sustainable on so many levels, pollution, cost, congestion, resource management, health etc, etc and, to be so dependent on the car and then allow our dependency to stop other people from seeking valid alternatives. Something has to give, or we are screwed as a human race.

 

[flecc]

The problem is, the car might be the warm cosy option, but it's not sustainable on so many levels, pollution, cost, congestion, resource management, health etc, etc and, to be so dependent on the car and then allow our dependency to stop other people from seeking valid alternatives. Something has to give, or we are screwed as a human race.

Agreed, but people being what they are, they dont see it as their problem. Just like the COP climate talks, it's all the other countries that should do something about it.

Eventually as the climate and pollution issue situations get ever more dangerous, changes will be forced to happen, but they won't necessarily be what we think at the moment. I only need to recollect all the past forecasts of what the future would be like to know how hopelessly wrong they were.

A small example:

Just over three years ago cycling and public transport were, as now, being encouraged in lieu of car commuting.

But the the pandemic struck and later followed a huge increase in working from home which is continuing.

So suddenly, instead of needing to change their mode of travel to work for many, that travel just disappeared. And the pandemic also brought weekly shops delivered to our homes by the supermarkets, eliminating three million weekly car trips. These radical changes no-one could possibly have anticipated.

So it's not worth fretting and jumping the gun by assuming the future's answers, since we will always get it wrong.
.

 

[Croxden]

Agreed, but people being what they are, they dont see it as their problem. Just like the COP climate talks, it's all the other countries that should do something about it.

Eventually as the climate and pollution issue situations get ever more dangerous, changes will be forced to happen, but they won't necessarily be what we think at the moment. I only need to recollect all the past forecasts of what the future would be like to know how hopelessly wrong they were.

A small example:

Just over three years ago cycling and public transport were, as now, being encouraged in lieu of car commuting.

But the the pandemic struck and later followed a huge increase in working from home which is continuing.

So suddenly, instead of needing to change their mode of travel to work for many, that travel just disappeared. And the pandemic also brought weekly shops delivered to our homes by the supermarkets, eliminating three million weekly car trips. These radical changes no-one could possibly have anticipated.

So it's not worth fretting and jumping the gun by assuming the future's answers, since we will always get it wrong.
.

The forecast I remember is we will all have jetpacks, I was so disappointed it not happening. But with today's people, perhaps it's as well.

 

[WheezyRider]

Agreed, but people being what they are, they dont see it as their problem. Just like the COP climate talks, it's all the other countries that should do something about it.

Eventually as the climate and pollution issue situations get ever more dangerous, changes will be forced to happen, but they won't necessarily be what we think at the moment. I only need to recollect all the past forecasts of what the future would be like to know how hopelessly wrong they were.

A small example:

Just over three years ago cycling and public transport were, as now, being encouraged in lieu of car commuting.

But the the pandemic struck and later followed a huge increase in working from home which is continuing.

So suddenly, instead of needing to change their mode of travel to work for many, that travel just disappeared. And the pandemic also brought weekly shops delivered to our homes by the supermarkets, eliminating three million weekly car trips. These radical changes no-one could possibly have anticipated.

So it's not worth fretting and jumping the gun by assuming the future's answers, since we will always get it wrong.
.

So you are saying we do nothing, let things get really bad and see what comes along, while we continue on a path that is obviously unsustainable?

 

[flecc]

So you are saying we do nothing, let things get really bad and see what comes along, while we continue on a path that is obviously unsustainable?

No.

I'm saying recognise what has been achieved both accidentally and deliberately and stop hammering on with futile arguments that achieve nothing:

Although total vehicle mileage has risen as the fleet has expanded, the mileage per average individual has greatly reduced, by around 39% in fact, a huge reduction from a peak of 12k per annum to 7.3 k average.

Everyone is complaining about the overall rise in traffic, but are seemingly unaware that the rise has itself brought about the reduction in individual mileages due to several reasons.

In effect multiple problems causing the level of traffic have been condensed to the single true one at the root of all the climate problems, too many people.

When I was born there were 2 billion people in the world, now there are 8 billion. That is what is unsustainable and until that problem is successfully tackled we won't achieve anything.

To put this in a local perspective, when I was born the UK population was 47 million who almost entirely walked, cycled and rode on public transport. They typically had a bath once a week and each household did a once weekly hand wash of clothing etc. Their electricity use was minimal, almost entirely just lighting with gas mainly just for cooking.

Now there's 68 million people in the UK with half of them driving around in cars, vans etc. Often kept warm with central heating, they frequently shower every day, sometimes more than once. They randomly run their washing machine a few times a week and their electricity and gas usages are huge.

Little wonder that we've swapped the past's plentiful water with now not enough, but plentiful pollution and a failing climate instead.

I've no idea what the successful answer will be, or even if there will be one, but one thing is certain.

Getting a few people riding a bike isn't it.
.

 

[esuark]

To put this in a local perspective, when I was born the UK population was 47 million who almost entirely walked, cycled and rode on public transport. They typically had a bath once a week and each household did a once weekly hand wash of clothing etc. Their electricity use was minimal, almost entirely just lighting with gas mainly just for cooking.

Showing my age now but I remember all this. I also remember Raymond Baxter on "Tomorrows world" (BBC TV program) saying we`d be working half the hours in the future as we did then, 1970`s. But the cynic in me then knew the boss`s would take all they could get and it wouldn't happen.

 

[Bikes4two]

Joking aside though, the world population is a problem - those not in the consumerist western world, want to be, and so Mother Earth will be bled dry of materials unless something nasty happens to reduce our numbers or expectations.

Expectations will only be quashed by the price being unafordable, either in monetary or ecological terms.

Car prices are getting ever more expensive (fuel and vehicle costs to name but two) - there's hope for e-bikes then (providing potential users are not scared off by alarmist views on battery fires ).

 

[esuark]

View attachment 49988

Joking aside though, the world population is a problem - those not in the consumerist western world, want to be, and so Mother Earth will be bled dry of materials unless something nasty happens to reduce our numbers or expectations.

Expectations will only be quashed by the price being unafordable, either in monetary or ecological terms.

Car prices are getting ever more expensive (fuel and vehicle costs to name but two) - there's hope for e-bikes then (providing potential users are not scared off by alarmist views on battery fires ).

love that picture

 

[WheezyRider]

No.

I'm saying recognise what has been achieved both accidentally and deliberately and stop hammering on with futile arguments that achieve nothing:

Although total vehicle mileage has risen as the fleet has expanded, the mileage per average individual has greatly reduced, by around 39% in fact, a huge reduction from a peak of 12k per annum to 7.3 k average.

Everyone is complaining about the overall rise in traffic, but are seemingly unaware that the rise has itself brought about the reduction in individual mileages due to several reasons.

In effect multiple problems causing the level of traffic have been condensed to the single true one at the root of all the climate problems, too many people.

When I was born there were 2 billion people in the world, now there are 8 billion. That is what is unsustainable and until that problem is successfully tackled we won't achieve anything.

To put this in a local perspective, when I was born the UK population was 47 million who almost entirely walked, cycled and rode on public transport. They typically had a bath once a week and each household did a once weekly hand wash of clothing etc. Their electricity use was minimal, almost entirely just lighting with gas mainly just for cooking.

Now there's 68 million people in the UK with half of them driving around in cars, vans etc. Often kept warm with central heating, they frequently shower every day, sometimes more than once. They randomly run their washing machine a few times a week and their electricity and gas usages are huge.

Little wonder that we've swapped the past's plentiful water with now not enough, but plentiful pollution and a failing climate instead.

I've no idea what the successful answer will be, or even if there will be one, but one thing is certain.

Getting a few people riding a bike isn't it.
.

Now you're just making excuses to do nothing, just blame it on the number of people there are and then you don't have to do anything, leave it all as it is.

Getting people cycling is not going to solve everything, but it is a no brainer to encourage more people to cycle, for such a wide range of reasons. Even ignoring the environmental benefits, the saving to the NHS would be huge if we were not so sedentary. Also, there are significant economic benefits. For a start, we could save a huge amount by not spending £27 Bn on new roads. If you go to any town centre in the NL, you will struggle to find a closed down shop unit. Also, reducing noise from traffic makes towns much more pleasant places to live. Then, reducing speed limits to 20 mph would make our urban roads much safer, far fewer people would die but you don't want that either as it makes driving less "fun".

Once again we have run into your cognitive dissonance and have come to the end of the road.

 

[flecc]

Now you're just making excuses to do nothing, just blame it on the number of people there are and then you don't have to do anything, leave it all as it is.

Getting people cycling is not going to solve everything, but it is a no brainer to encourage more people to cycle, for such a wide range of reasons. Even ignoring the environmental benefits, the saving to the NHS would be huge if we were not so sedentary. Also, there are significant economic benefits. For a start, we could save a huge amount by not spending £27 Bn on new roads. If you go to any town centre in the NL, you will struggle to find a closed down shop unit. Also, reducing noise from traffic makes towns much more pleasant places to live. Then, reducing speed limits to 20 mph would make our urban roads much safer, far fewer people would die but you don't want that either as it makes driving less "fun".

Once again we have run into your cognitive dissonance and have come to the end of the road.

Once again no, I have not said do nothing. Of course encourage cycling, but be realistic, which you are very far from being. We are never going to get this country cycling in remotely the way the Dutch do it, so drop the fanaticism. The Dutch started strongly in 1972 from 40% still cycling. We started the campaign weakly in the early 1990s from almost no-one still cycling and our country already firmly lost to the car culture.

We've made some gain but are now almost at the limits as the cycling takeup slows down. As I've shown before it's only the relatively young who have taken it up and most who have been forced out of cars in London have gone to public transport rather than cycling.

So getting people cycling is a dead mans shoes process of waiting for the next generation. But even that has been made far more difficult since so many of the young have never cycled due to parental fears not allowing their children to have bikes. Never a cyclist makes it far more difficult for getting cycling adopted as they get older. This again is in stark contrast with the Netherlands where all can cycle early, doing it even on pedelecs which we ban for the under 14s here.

The outcome of all this is the pathetically slow uptake of cycling here, something which you will continue to see over the years as you gradually come to realise the wisdom of my words.

It's a bit like the campaigns to get people to eat more heathily. A few do, but the majority take advantage of the ever growing number of junk food delivery services. One step forward, two steps backwards.
.

 

[guerney]

Despite the efficiency of bikes, most of us are still suck in transport poverty:

‘Entrenched car culture’ leaves millions of Britons in transport poverty

Study finds drivers spending up to a fifth of pre-tax income on running a car as lack of infrastructure deters people from cycling

www.theguardian.com

Quoting the article:

"about three-quarters of drivers think they will always own a car, while just under half, 47%, believe they have no alternative."

= 28% might consider alternatives such as cycling, as economic conditions worsen and electric cars remain relatively expensive? Unless there are "How yo ride a bike" night school classes offered, I expect most will simply buy dangerous escooters. Making throttles legal would disrupt escooter adoption somewhat I think.

 

[WheezyRider]

For the conspiracy theorists here...

Why do traffic reduction schemes attract so many conspiracy theories? | Peter Walker

Plan to restrict car journeys in Oxford becomes lightning rod for fears of global assault on freedoms

www.theguardian.com

 

[flecc]

For the conspiracy theorists here...

Why do traffic reduction schemes attract so many conspiracy theories? | Peter Walker

Plan to restrict car journeys in Oxford becomes lightning rod for fears of global assault on freedoms

www.theguardian.com

Peterson and all who think like him are obviously crackpots. The Oxford scheme is simply a variant on London's congestion charge and it could be just as successful if implemented strongly enough.

The only criticisms I have of the scheme is that they are making two many exceptions and being too generous with Free Passes, both of which undermine the intention to restrict motor traffic.

Oxford shouldn't worry about the critics and should bring in the scheme with maximum effect. London has shown twice with both the Fares Fair and Congestion Charge schemes that once up and working with their advantages realised, almost all the opposition melts away. I'm confident it will be the same with Ultra Low Emission Zone ( ULEZ ), at present strongly opposed before it's up and running.

As you've said we have to do something and I'm all for doing the proven and effective things, rather than banging our heads against the wall year after year with the ineffective persuasion campaigns.

All people are small "c" conservatives who resist change so they have to forced into it. All our major urban centres will have to have motor traffic restriction schemes eventually, so the sooner we implement them before further traffic growth, the better.
.

 

[saneagle]

For the conspiracy theorists here...

Why do traffic reduction schemes attract so many conspiracy theories? | Peter Walker

Plan to restrict car journeys in Oxford becomes lightning rod for fears of global assault on freedoms

www.theguardian.com

I'm no expert, but it might be because the first thing the councils do is set up cameras and barriers when they decide to make 15 minute cities/20 minute neighbourhoods, not build new medical services, local shops and parks - just saying.

 

[soundwave]

1984 is George Orwell's terrifying vision of a totalitarian future in which everything and everyone is slave to a tyrannical regime.

1984

The perfect edition for any Orwell enthusiasts' collection, discover the classic dystopian masterpiece beautifully reimagined by renowned street artist Shepard Fairey Winston Smith works for the Ministry of Truth in London, chief city of Airstrip One. Big Brother stares out from every poster...

www.wob.com

Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the dwp has been using its providers to send ppl on this crap for the last 20 years because it is all about control and doing what you are told or else.

https://flic.kr/p/2jda6pq
10 ppl £1000 each via dwp prap system and if ur that stupid and you cant do that.

https://flic.kr/p/2jFR88q

 

[Woosh]

the dwp has been using its providers to send ppl on this crap for the last 20 years because it is all about control and doing what you are told or else.

government should spend the money on funding paid apprenticeship instead of those useless courses.

 

[Az.]

5 week course on how to sleep? Wow...
It is Online via Zoom. You just fire up your laptop and go to sleep?

 

[MikelBikel]

Note that the *only* "dangerously high" readings were obtained in London underground where only *electric* trains run.

 

[WheezyRider]

The underground is full of all sorts of crap. It's been around since the 19th century. Wouldn't want to spend much time in it. The trains are electric now, but the contacts are open and they spark and arc all over the place, filling the air with ozone, iron oxide particles and carbon dust. I remember when I used to ride on it to work blowing my nose, the tissue would be black.

However, this guy is only looking at particulates, not all the other forms of pollution from vehicles such as NOx etc. Plus, he does limited measurements at limited locations/times of day within a limited time frame. No account of weather conditions etc. So you can't draw the conclusions that he does - it's not scientifically rigorous.