Most efficient travel

[jimriley]

Check out cycling on this graph, not sure where an ebike would fit, perhaps not far from leg power. Urban Cycling Institute on Facebook.
"'Just as the computer, the bicycle is a tool that amplifies our inherent abilities to spectacular magnitudes'
— Steve Jobs

(Scientific American measured the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. Humans on bikes blew all away!)"

 

[Az.]

> Humans on bikes blew all away

Not at all. Flies are clear winners.

 

[flecc]

> Humans on bikes blew all away

Not at all. Flies are clear winners.

I'd share in your challenge to that chart. Albatross and many sea fish not on it are the most efficient of all.

Include all the rider's effort in maintenance, including puncture repairs, and bikes aren't quite as good as they superficially look.
.

 

[jimriley]

I'd share in your challenge to that chart. Albatross and many sea fish not on it are the most efficient of all.

Include all the rider's effort in maintenance, including puncture repairs, and bikes aren't quite as good as they superficially look.
.

Even including maintenance they blow all other human transport away.

 

[flecc]

Even including maintenance they blow all other human transport away.

Yes indeed. I just wish more would use them in the most efficient mode as we all used to years ago, content with only putting in walking effort but at about 3 times average walking speed.

So many now ride much faster with considerable effort to battle air resistance for diminishing returns.
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[Az.]

This graph proves nothing but some academics had to much wine and play with statistic charts.
Do you all remember Boris leaving Boing 747 all by himself while he was on a way to ecological convention? It does take considerably more fuel to transfer one Tory member from point A to point B than it takes to move ordinary working class person on Ryan flight. It is not just a single dot on a graph.

 

[WheezyRider]

I think that graph comes from a Scientific American publication from approx 1973. Quite a few of those dots would have to be moved, aviation has become a lot more efficient over the last 50 years.

I also don't like the animal comparisons. The ground based human transport on the graph requires the building and maintenance of roads to obtain those figures, which I doubt they have included in the calculation

 

[WheezyRider]

Here we go, thought it was 73:

 

[matthewslack]

Here we go, thought it was 73:

View attachment 49980

Have you got the whole set?

 

[WheezyRider]

Have you got the whole set?

I used too, until the garage roof leaked. I didn't notice until it was too late and all my old journals got turned into a soggy slimy mess. That picture was from someone selling a copy on eBay

 

[WheezyRider]

Despite the efficiency of bikes, most of us are still suck in transport poverty:

‘Entrenched car culture’ leaves millions of Britons in transport poverty

Study finds drivers spending up to a fifth of pre-tax income on running a car as lack of infrastructure deters people from cycling

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bikes4two]

So many now ride much faster with considerable effort to battle air resistance for diminishing returns.

Now that brings me to a (related) question I've often pondered over and that is, from the e-bike point of view, are cycling at certain speeds more battery efficient than others?

• So I ride with a TSDZ2 motor (torque sensing) set to cut off at 25kph
• The battery power used is proportional to my input yes? (that's what torque sensing is all about of course)
• Given that wind resistance increases with speed, then it must be the case that a proportion battery energy is used to overcome that wind resistance too?
• From the battery use/efficiency point of view, if I was at standstill with the motor off or going over 25kph, with the motor having cut out, the battery wouldn't be used (much) at all.
• So the question is, is there a sweet spot of max efficiency somewhere between zero kph and 25kph or is it a linear relationship between these two limits?

Discuss, as they say.

 

[matthewslack]

View attachment 49981

Now that brings me to a (related) question I've often pondered over and that is, from the e-bike point of view, are cycling at certain speeds more battery efficient than others?

• So I ride with a TSDZ2 motor (torque sensing) set to cut off at 25kph
• The battery power used is proportional to my input yes? (that's what torque sensing is all about of course)
• Given that wind resistance increases with speed, then it must be the case that a proportion battery energy is used to overcome that wind resistance too?
• From the battery use/efficiency point of view, if I was at standstill with the motor off or going over 25kph, with the motor having cut out, the battery wouldn't be used (much) at all.
• So the question is, is there a sweet spot of max efficiency somewhere between zero kph and 25kph or is it a linear relationship between these two limits?

Discuss, as they say.

Wind resistance goes up with the square of the speed, so in simple terms, the slower the better provided the motor is operating close to its maximum efficiency, I.e. gearing is appropriate.

But in energy per passenger mile, we are so far ahead, blasting at 25km/h on max assist is still orders of magnitude better than a fossil fuel car.

10Wh per mile is equivalent to about 4,500mpg primary fuel consumption on diesel.

 

[guerney]

Have you got the whole set?

I knew he would and should have said that @WheezyRider seemed the type.

 

[guerney]

Despite the efficiency of bikes, most of us are still suck in transport poverty:

‘Entrenched car culture’ leaves millions of Britons in transport poverty

Study finds drivers spending up to a fifth of pre-tax income on running a car as lack of infrastructure deters people from cycling

www.theguardian.com

Drivers will hate increased taxes as a result of the building segregated cycle lanes, providing grants and subsidies for ebikes, which would push the cost onto the state.

 

[guerney]

Check out cycling on this graph, not sure where an ebike would fit, perhaps not far from leg power. Urban Cycling Institute on Facebook.
"'Just as the computer, the bicycle is a tool that amplifies our inherent abilities to spectacular magnitudes'
— Steve Jobs

(Scientific American measured the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. Humans on bikes blew all away!)"
View attachment 49975

There's no mention of Covid. I suppose calories used by coronaviruses could be very tricky to calculate...

 

[WheezyRider]

Drivers will hate increased taxes as a result of the building segregated cycle lanes, providing grants and subsidies for ebikes, which would push the cost onto the state.

Drivers may resent spending on cycle infra, but they have nothing to complain about. A lot of drivers see the roads as theirs as they "pay road tax" - a tax that hasn't existed since 1937, car owners pay vehicle excise duty, which is effectively a licence to pollute. Everyone pays for roads through taxation, something like >£2000 per household, whether you own a car or not, so all roads and infra belongs to everyone. Something like 30 to 40% of households do not own a car, do they not get a say? About 18 months ago, the government announced £27 Billion to be spent on new road building. Active travel funding got something like few 100 million. Everything is way out of balance and it needs sorting.

 

[WheezyRider]

View attachment 49981

Now that brings me to a (related) question I've often pondered over and that is, from the e-bike point of view, are cycling at certain speeds more battery efficient than others?

• So I ride with a TSDZ2 motor (torque sensing) set to cut off at 25kph
• The battery power used is proportional to my input yes? (that's what torque sensing is all about of course)
• Given that wind resistance increases with speed, then it must be the case that a proportion battery energy is used to overcome that wind resistance too?
• From the battery use/efficiency point of view, if I was at standstill with the motor off or going over 25kph, with the motor having cut out, the battery wouldn't be used (much) at all.
• So the question is, is there a sweet spot of max efficiency somewhere between zero kph and 25kph or is it a linear relationship between these two limits?

Discuss, as they say.

As a guy on a bike you are probably not so easily intimidated by traffic. However, if you are a woman on your own or if you are a child cycling to school, it's a different matter.

Would you let your 8 year old cycle through HGVs, Buses and fast moving traffic? In the NL, infra is designed so that it can be used safely by anyone from 8 upwards. So children there cycle to school and get used to cycling in all conditions.

Cycling in the rain and cold isn't always a lot of fun, but it's a lot less of a stress than worrying how you are going to pay the bills to keep a car on the road. If you do a search you will find examples where people have calculated the cost of running a car and you can compare that to average household incomes.

Bike motors are usually designed to reach peak efficiency at 25kph, so about 80% at around 200 to 250 rpm. This is independent of air resistance. There will be a compromise speed to give best speed for a given energy input. Have a look at some of the online simulators.

 

[flecc]

Something like 30 to 40% of households do not own a car, do they not get a say?

Let's not make up figures. The 2021 census showed 20.7% of households did not have a car, halving your quoted top number. At that time there were 12 cars for every 10 households in Great Britain.
.

 

[flecc]

Cycling in the rain and cold isn't always a lot of fun

You can say that again. Yesterday as I walked the length of supermarket car park against a biting icy wind I was damn glad to get into my nice warm car to go the five miles home. Even more so when it started to pour with rain half way. And that's from someone who has cycled most of his long life.

But I'm a realist who recognises how overwhelmingly attractive car ownership is, compared to the alternatives of cycling and public transport. That's why people still struggle to own a car, no matter what the cost. That's why I always owned a car in parallel with my cycling, even when the car was doing very few miles each year. That's why 74% of all over 17 year olds have a full driving licence and the majority of the rest have a provisional licence, over 9 million held currently with long waiting list for driving tests.
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