More powerful and legal e-bikes on the way!!!

[Biged]

I rarely disagree with flecc, but on this occasion i must.

accompanied by yet another unnecessary and British only restriction, a minimum age limit of 14 years..
.

I can just see it now, pre-teen rich kids frying round shopping centers and on payments (just as they do now) but at 15.5mph. Whose going to complain! they wont even be able to catch them

 

[Mussels]

Blimey! Further to my last, I just checked out electric mopeds and the first one I looked at, a Buzz model is yours today for £1399 and there's no road tax on those!

The seller claims a range of 40 miles with a top speed of 40mph.........is it just me or are ebikes too expensive?

Indalo

I stumbled across an electric vehicle exhibition a couple of years ago and took a look at the mopeds. I got chatting to one of the company reps (I think he was the owner) and getting decent performance out of an electric moped required much more expensive batteries, the sub £2000 models were very limited in range and power due to the lead acid batteries. Start putting Lithium batteries in and the cost rockets higher than the performance gains.
Another disadvantage is the batteries can't be carried into work to recharge during the day, this effectively halves the commuting range.

 

[flecc]

------ moped ------ perfect for those who can't be bothered pedalling -------and they can go much quicker legally than an ebike without pedalling,

I think you can safely say that I'm not persuaded by those who attempt to justify increased power for electrically assisted bicycles

Sorry Indalo, I think you are completely missing the point. I am speaking of people who want the pleasures of a bike, the low speeds, the relative silence, wearing of "normal" clothes, the lack of bureaucracy, all without the exhaustion that difficult terrain can bring with both unpowered and present e-bikes.

Some illustrations.

The Dutch have long enjoyed that sort of cycling, leisurely at moderate speeds with low effort in the mostly flat land. But they have taken to e-bikes like ducks to water. We can argue that they don't need the power in their flat territory at their low speeds, but they just see the added enjoyment of even less effort. Do you think they should be banned from owning e-bikes?

Our Spanish member Poppy (the name is his son's idea of a joke). Poppy lives in the mountainous region of north west Spain and enjoys cycling in that beautiful countryside. He has tried some e-bikes and settled on a Panasonic powered BH, but he finds the longer climbs exhaust him to the degree that the pleasure is lost. He needs more power to allow pleasant cycling.

Our member Gaynor lives in a part of Hastings that means she has to face either a 1 in 7 or a 1 in 5 climb to get back home. But both are too much, especially when carrying shopping as well. She needs more power.

This is not about speed as has been clearly illustrated. E-bikes are not being changed, they will still be limited to 15.5 mph and remain as bicycles. The extra power is only an option, many will still prefer the lower powered machines. Nor is weight a problem with a bit more power, batteries get ever lighter. In 2006 my e-bike's 360 Wh battery weighed 5.5 kilos. The latest battery for it has 518 Wh and only weighs 3.9 kilos.

What I don't understand is the attitude that says "I'm all right Jack, I don't need more power so you mustn't have it either". It seems selfish to me.
.

 

[flecc]

I rarely disagree with flecc, but on this occasion i must.

I can just see it now, pre-teen rich kids frying round shopping centers and on payments (just as they do now) but at 15.5mph. Whose going to complain! they wont even be able to catch them

Kids below 14 years round here have no trouble flying along pavements at 20 mph on unpowered bikes, an e-bike would slow some of them down!

Anyway, how come 26 other EU countries don't have a problem, only Britain added that 14 years lower age limit?

 

[indalo]

Start putting Lithium batteries in and the cost rockets higher than the performance gains.
Another disadvantage is the batteries can't be carried into work to recharge during the day, this effectively halves the commuting range.

It seems like things have moved on somewhat Mussels. I hadn't given any thought to battery type or placement on mopeds and your point about removal and recharge is good. Out of curiosity, I Googled, "Electric moped with removable battery" and it seems like Lithium batteries which can be removed quickly for that mid-day charge are now becoming available at affordable prices.

I'm surprised these modern mopeds aren't a more common sight on the roads......well, not on the roads around me anyway.

Indalo

 

[tillson]

Anyway, how come 26 other EU countries don't have a problem, only Britain added that 14 years lower age limit?

That may have something to do with EU parents having a greater sense of family values and instilling a greater sense of responsibility into their children. Here, parents are likely to buy their off-spring the latest ebike as an alternative to spending time with them. This will get the kids off their hands and free up time to watch reality TV and drink cheap larger unhindered.

I think that the 14 year rule ( maybe even 40 in some cases) is a good thing, but only really necessary in this country.

 

[Scottyf]

Besides Kid's really dont want something thats electric and seen as green by there friends.
They'd rather be riding BMX's and trying to stunt about. They won't like a silent, practical bike.

Unless someone takes a 15mph ebike and starts doing something very cool with it. They will never be taken up by 14 years olds.

This rule change when it happens will not change anything in the current outlook or markets to the effect that a few of you are describing. Most adults don't know about it Ebikes. Far fewer would even be bothered about using one in the UK.

 

[flecc]

I think that the 14 year rule ( maybe even 40 in some cases) is a good thing, but only really necessary in this country.

I just think it silly through being totally unnecessary. Realistically, how many kids will have an e-bike, given the cost? And as Mussels has observed, will they even want a pedelec only non-throttle bike? I think not.

Most will be like the four 14 years olds who tried one of mine in turn out from outside the local Sainsburys. Less than two years later, a cluster of screaming mopeds slowed right down alongside when I was cycling. Yes, it was those four saying hello with huge grins. That's what kids will still continue to opt for, twist-and-go with lots of noise, e-bikes just don't cut it in the right way for them.

Crossed with Scotty's post.

 

[Eaglerider]

I think a large part of the appeal for E-Bikes is that they are bicycles. The open framework, simplistic design and structure, the light weight, the ease of repair and mantenance, all serve to provide the magic of the ride. I really don't want to be doing 30 mph+ on my E-Bike, it would demand more concentration to ride, and the relaxation and solitude benefits would be largely lost.

I have a 150 bhp motorcycle at home which is quite nippy, but it can in no way replace the experience of a silent nightime ride on my Eagle. Some extra power would be nice for hill climbing, and also for a mate who has a dicky ticker. Other than that I like e-bikes just the way they are.

 

[Scottyf]

but it can in no way replace the experience of a silent nightime ride on my Eagle.

I guess you can't beat a bit of late night stalking!


However the point is that its allows the hill climbing to be easier. Which for most or a broader view would be a highly welcomed change.

I don't beleive it would detract away from the original concept what so ever.

I still think the trottle rule is a load of tosh too. Thats all a pedelec sensor is anyway. The difference being you control it with your feet rather than hands. It too is an idiotic rule.
One that drempt up by morons.

I'm far happier with the simplistic option of the throttle which allows me to choose what i'm doing. Or even if I want a helping hand from the motor.
I still ride 2 days a week unassisted regardless but don't use the power. This gives me a double workout by having the extra weight side. It also reminds me of what its like without power so I don't go to fast.

However I am suprised about people being negative by what is effectivly a positive move for the industry and will help those that need it most.

Its interesting to read that it will make you more lazy. But the issue really is at least there on a bike. Least there out reducing congestion. There getting a little excercise no matter how small. It must be better and more enjoyable to use a bike with assistance than on its own. I personally would never have attempted my commute if i didn't have a back up.

More people on bikes / ebikes is a great thing and one we should all applaud and welcome.

 

[flecc]

I still think the throttle rule is a load of tosh too. Thats all a pedelec sensor is anyway. The difference being you control it with your feet rather than hands. It too is an idiotic rule.

It's about perception. When permission was first granted for bicycles to have some assist power, the aim was obviously that they must stay as bicycles and not become in any way motorcycles. Since bicycles are propelled by pedalling, it made sense that should not change, the pedalling should merely be assisted. The Panasonic, Bosch and Daum bikes are the perfect implementation of that principle, each thrust of a pedal having power added.

Therefore, though the pedelec only rule might seem superficially silly, it is in fact very logical.

Assisted or not, only bicycles are exempted from motor vehicle laws and bureaucracy, so it's vital that e-bikes remain bicycles and do not creep towards becoming motorcycles, since that will lead to gradual loss of exemptions. That has already happened in Germany and Switzerland with their higher speed classes which have to comply with some motor vehicle regulations and have restrictions on where they can go.
.

 

[Scottyf]

I cant get along with the pedelec throttle. It just doesn't do what I want, when I want it.
I think thats the reason I prefere to use a throttle.

Also I prefer using it on corners when I try to get low on them. I can stay better in control and maintain speed because of it.

The crank delivery systems however are far more refined with torque sensors.

 

[Synthman]

I believe that throttles are very important on ebikes for the following reasons.

1: You can get the bike to move forwards before pedalling, so can get balanced better.

2: When riding in a line of slow moving traffic, you can open the throttle slightly and maintain perfect speed.

3: Better control when you need to ride at a ridiculously slow pace, or to maintain a speed as above.

4: When moving a 35kg bike with another 10kg of load strapped on it through a narrow uphill path, can walk alongside the bike and open the throttle carefully. Also useful to get up high kerbs.


On my bike, the pedelec sensor is next to useless in some situations. There is a split-second delay when the power kicks in or out, and it does jolt the bike slightly each time. Useless for moving in a line of traffic, and cannot maintain a constant speed with it. Also tricky to set off from lights with the sensor only.

I would like to try out a crank drive bike with a good sensor, but I know I would miss the throttle after nearly 2 years of riding like that.

 

[flecc]

I agree with you both Scotty and Synthman, and my experience of the benefits matches yours, which is why my bike has a throttle.

The snag in trying to argue for throttle legality though is that the vast majority of European e-bikers are in The Netherlands, Germany and the other low countries, and all manage fine with pedelec only. And it can't really be argued that it's about road conditions, there are some pretty awful mixed traffic conditions on narrow roads in parts of all those countries, as some online videos have shown.

Whatever we say or do, the likelyhood is that throttles will disappear from our e-bikes eventually, though there is a slim chance that the DfT will take notice of our registered pleas.

 

[Old Timer]

Hiya lads and lassies

I`m still alive and kicking but I`m having a few problems with the old digestion system. The heart seems fine but I`m breaking up in other places.

Anyway! good news on the higher power with similar speed limit. After a few days of trying things out I never shift away from med power on the aurora which sees it plod along at maybe 16mph or there abouts which is fine but it definitely has a bit more oomph up the hills which is good for me. I`ve still been riding from time to time as and when I feel OK and when Anne joins me with her 36v 250W bike she really drops back on hills and even has to push at times so bring on the extra power for all is what I say.(as long as it doesn`t attract the wrong types)

Dave

 

[flecc]

Hi Dave, glad to hear that your troubles are not too severe and leave you still able to enjoy the Aurora. Hope the winter weather doesn't tax you too much. It certainly seems that Anne could benefit from that bit of extra power to keep speed up on hills, time for her to have your twin motor system maybe?

 

[Old Timer]

Don`t shout too loud or she`ll hear you

 

[johnc461165]

I don't like pedelec and never use it, because I want the fine control that I can get from using a throttle, I just want to use the power when I need it such as difficult hills, similar to Old timer med power is pretty much all I use on my Aurora. More power and limited speed sounds good to me, I have had a knee replacement and the extra power for climbing hills is a bonus.

 

[Old Timer]

I agree, throttle is important to me, I use it for slow crawling when on loose ground and at junctions and would be lost without it. The aurora is quite lively on pedelec so you need the gentle control at times.

Dave

 

[bode]

Instead of pandering to them, maybe they could be encouraged to get a bit fitter. The very thing that might get them more healthy is compromised by giving them power to cut their effort.
If someone is too lazy to get out of bed, would you design them a more comfortable bed?

I have 50% lung capacity following a serious operation last year. I should welcome your views on how I might get fitter since you are evidently medically qualified and compassionate.

I certainly don't want a moped or scooter, and pedal most of the time, but on occasion welcome the opportunity to have a rest and let the throttle take the strain.