Flecc I think it is fair to say that lies half truths and misrepresentation have been evident from both sides of the argument, Was it Churchill who said ''there are lies, damned lies and statistics ''. I think we are getting a fair amount of these. The problem for the out side is that they are not able to mobilise the civil service foreign heads of state and various other supposedly independent impartial bodies (imf)) with self centered reasons for us staying. They are not really interested in whats best for the British people. But whats new
Leaving the EU
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Completely agree, it could be said David Cameron is being dishonest too, since not too long ago he was preaching that the UK could get on fine outside of the EU.
I just dislike the dishonesty from each and every one of them.
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if the Brexiters were to accept that there is a price to pay to get out and the Bremainers that immigration at present level is way too much then the debate may get somewhere.
Personally, I think that we should get out for a period of 10 to 15 years then another referendum get back in is the best for the country and the EU. There will be cost but also benefit. The EU will hav time to develop properly towards a federal state without becoming another USA or USSR and without being delayed by the Brits.
Personally, I think that we should get out for a period of 10 to 15 years then another referendum get back in is the best for the country and the EU. There will be cost but also benefit. The EU will hav time to develop properly towards a federal state without becoming another USA or USSR and without being delayed by the Brits.
I very much doubt I'll be here in ten to fifteen years to see what damage has been done.
So why should I care?
So why should I care?
if you don't think you'll see another referendum in your lifetime, then you should vote remain. The EU is an ideal that we should want to move to and our children and grand children to live in.
Paxman on BBC1 tonight at 8pm.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07c6n58
He is a eurosceptic but with some nuance and would make a much better leader for the leave campaign than that buffoon Boris.
The Pound recovers strongly after Boris mentioned the 'H' word.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07c6n58
He is a eurosceptic but with some nuance and would make a much better leader for the leave campaign than that buffoon Boris.
The Pound recovers strongly after Boris mentioned the 'H' word.
This is worth watching if you want the truth. If it won't play, search Brexit The Movie on YouTube.
That's not the truth at all, it's just a repeat of opinion based propaganda, much of it decidely not true.
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Not really in view of some things said. For example the statement that the EU was designed to permanently remove democratic rights.
That is a lie on two counts.
First, all decisions by the non-democratic EU Commission have to be approved by two other bodies, one of which is the wholly elected European Parliament. If they refuse to agree, the undemocratic idea cannot be adopted.
Secondly, the undemocratic commission only exists to achieve union. Once achieved, it's 28 member country representatives go home, job done, leaving the wholly elected parliament in control.
Ergo, there is no current or permanent removal of democratic rights, and such is not and never has been the intention.
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the TV debates about democracy worry me a little bit. There seems to be a dividing line between the ones who appreciate and approve democracy sharing/pooling to solve the big issues and those who stick to democracy as a block of stone, to be chipped away by the EU or to be traded for some economic gains. The latter tend to shout loudest.
it seems to come down to whether you think this is a small country, therefore better join forces with our neighbours or England is a big boy and can do whatever he wants. I did not see many eurosceptic Scots and Irish on TV.
it seems to come down to whether you think this is a small country, therefore better join forces with our neighbours or England is a big boy and can do whatever he wants. I did not see many eurosceptic Scots and Irish on TV.
The value of the pound against the Euro is roughly where it was in 2012 and 2014, but it's lower than it was in 2013. 2015 sees the euro particularly weak against the pound, this is probably due to the Greek financial crisis.
The pound is at a satisfactory value against the euro today, but I suspect it will strengthen when the inevitability of the next euro financial crisis comes around. It will strengthen further when the whole EU system comes crashing down around their ears and we are out, having wisely kept the pound a few years ago.
before shemoz tells me off again for inappropriate use of proprietary graphics, here is the link to the value of the Pound against the Dollar (it's roughly the same against the usual basket of currencies) between 14th May and today:
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W
1 Pound was worth $1.436 before he mentioned the H word (May 14th), after the press made a big story out f it, you see the Pound shot up to $1.46 on the 18th and hang around at this level.
That is £17 more profit on a £1000 for a trader.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W
1 Pound was worth $1.436 before he mentioned the H word (May 14th), after the press made a big story out f it, you see the Pound shot up to $1.46 on the 18th and hang around at this level.
That is £17 more profit on a £1000 for a trader.
NHS £2,400,000,000 overspent, which is rumoured to be a deliberately reduced figure. Waiting times for critical illness treatment increasing. This is due to demand the population is placing on health services. The equation is simple, more people equals more demand.
Staying in the EU exposes us to a further unnatural population expansion. Five more countries are set to join the EU in the near future the consequences of which is a possible swell in population equal to 5 x Birmingham.
Remember when Poland joined the EU? People were riddiculed for saying that it would lead to hundreds of thousands of migrants arriving in the UK. That prediction came true, with bells and tassels attached. As will the 5 x Birmingham prediction.
We simply can not cope with this. It's an unfolding disaster and we must vote out of the EU to stand any chance of having the services and care that we have paid for all of our working lives.
Staying in the EU exposes us to a further unnatural population expansion. Five more countries are set to join the EU in the near future the consequences of which is a possible swell in population equal to 5 x Birmingham.
Remember when Poland joined the EU? People were riddiculed for saying that it would lead to hundreds of thousands of migrants arriving in the UK. That prediction came true, with bells and tassels attached. As will the 5 x Birmingham prediction.
We simply can not cope with this. It's an unfolding disaster and we must vote out of the EU to stand any chance of having the services and care that we have paid for all of our working lives.
the problem with our permanent budget deficit (the last time we had a budget surplus was when Kenneth Clarke was Chancellor under John Major) can only be solved with higher taxation. That is not going to happen outside the EU because both our biggest parties are funded by and have no compulsion to tax the billionaires more than they do now. Only the EU's socialist agenda can corner the tax evaders across the whole of Europe and the world.
During Question Time last night, Paul Mason suggested that we should raise £28 billions more a year from the super rich tax avoiders.
During Question Time last night, Paul Mason suggested that we should raise £28 billions more a year from the super rich tax avoiders.
Another bit of nonsense from Michael Gove, which he knows is false.
That's because it presupposes that the five countries will join, but that cannot happen without our permission. Every member country has a veto on a new member joining, and we've already made it clear to the EU Commission that we will not allow any more to join until the EU economy is back in a good state.
And that is what makes Gove a liar. On the one hand he says the EU economy will continue to go downhill, but on the other hand he says the five countries will join which entails the EU economy succeeding.
He can't have it both ways while there are people like me who remember what he says.
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The problem with the notion of leaving the EU for me is that there are several problems if we do so, for which there are no immediate answers available, and we do not have the time or resources to ignore them.
1: We are no longer a manufacturing nation, relying for what industry we have on Foreign Companies, who as we have seen with Tata, will quite likely "Jump ship" or indeed apply blackmail, if they feel the EU market is no longer available to them.
2; We are so heavily in thrall to the Financial services that any change such as movements of banks to the far east will literally pull the rug from under our feet.
3:There is no way of altering the fact that there are so many immigrants here already that the notion of returning to an "England for the English" is utterly impossible, and that within a generation we the shall we say "hangers on" will be a minority. We need a Europe wide answer to the situation, but to put it simply "Sovereignty" will pass to these newcomers in the fullness of time anyway by force of numbers, so just what can be achieved by making a fuss over it now? it is just a red herring.
4: We need to stop fighting other peoples wars and creating a refugee problem we blame on the EU as if we are innocent of being in any way involved in creating the dire conditions that have produced them.
5: Remember that America started off as separate colonies, which combined into the United States, quite frankly it would hardly be progress if they went back to living as separate organisations, would it?
For the Human race to reach the point of going forward to a peaceful future we have to discard this nonsense of small minded nationalism that is preventing the slow and admittedly painful growing up of the human race to the point of there being a World wide state.
Perhaps then no child will be born as I was to a Mother who had been bombed out twice, was ill and had me in an Aunt's house as there was no room in the hospitals for women who were merely ill and pregnant.
On the 29th April 1944, in Kingston Upon Hull, a city where 96% of the Buildings had been either destroyed or damaged by the Blitz.
That is what the EU is about, making the world a better place, regardless of what greedy idiots think it costs them.
The cost is worth paying. Vote remain
1: We are no longer a manufacturing nation, relying for what industry we have on Foreign Companies, who as we have seen with Tata, will quite likely "Jump ship" or indeed apply blackmail, if they feel the EU market is no longer available to them.
2; We are so heavily in thrall to the Financial services that any change such as movements of banks to the far east will literally pull the rug from under our feet.
3:There is no way of altering the fact that there are so many immigrants here already that the notion of returning to an "England for the English" is utterly impossible, and that within a generation we the shall we say "hangers on" will be a minority. We need a Europe wide answer to the situation, but to put it simply "Sovereignty" will pass to these newcomers in the fullness of time anyway by force of numbers, so just what can be achieved by making a fuss over it now? it is just a red herring.
4: We need to stop fighting other peoples wars and creating a refugee problem we blame on the EU as if we are innocent of being in any way involved in creating the dire conditions that have produced them.
5: Remember that America started off as separate colonies, which combined into the United States, quite frankly it would hardly be progress if they went back to living as separate organisations, would it?
For the Human race to reach the point of going forward to a peaceful future we have to discard this nonsense of small minded nationalism that is preventing the slow and admittedly painful growing up of the human race to the point of there being a World wide state.
Perhaps then no child will be born as I was to a Mother who had been bombed out twice, was ill and had me in an Aunt's house as there was no room in the hospitals for women who were merely ill and pregnant.
On the 29th April 1944, in Kingston Upon Hull, a city where 96% of the Buildings had been either destroyed or damaged by the Blitz.
That is what the EU is about, making the world a better place, regardless of what greedy idiots think it costs them.
The cost is worth paying. Vote remain
An excellent summary Old Groaner, I could have put it no better.
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